Tuesday, 2022-08-09

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sadoon[m]On the one hand I feel dumb, on the other, their system is still complicated10:03
sadoon[m]a VM with buildd might be the perfect solution apparently10:04
lkcl-sadoon[m], it's managing - with no fuss and no pomp or self-aggrandisement or self-promotion - one of the most complex and comprehensive software distribution projects in the world.11:18
lkcl-40,000+ packages across 12+ different types of hardware including IBM s390 mainframe and Motorola 68000.11:18
sadoon[m]I do have a lot of respect for what they do, of course, hence why it's my distro of choice on all my devices11:20
sadoon[m]I've thought a lot about moving to gentoo simply because of their build system but where gentoo fails is debian's main selling point: it is extremely predictable, hence why projects like libre-soc use a debian chroot11:24
lkcl-in a word... yes11:40
lkcl-although i feel deeply betrayed and astonished by some of their decisions recently.11:41
lkcl-markos, mitch did the stats on imcdt36.s (original, ffmpeg) https://groups.google.com/g/comp.arch/c/aZQvbjqf2z8/m/ujKw-rryAAAJ11:52
lkcl-There are 64 FMULs11:52
lkcl-There are 133 FADD/FSUBs11:52
lkcl-There are 19 constants used 24 times11:52
lkcl-Constants are used 1.26 times each11:52
lkcl-Constants are used in 12.2% of FP instructions11:52
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lkcl-ghostmansd[m], two new RFPs for you have been approved.  there's a stack of outstanding ones, they did 2 for me yesterday, so they're obviously getting through them12:24
lkcl-but this is right smack in the middle of reviewing over a *hundred and fifty* new Grant applications on 1st aug (!)12:25
ghostmansd[m]lkcl, cool, will wait12:25
lkcl-Veera[m], ah ha, i have something for you. can you try running the coriolis2 build and the build_full_4k_sram.sh script?12:29
lkcl-and investigate what's going on?12:29
lkcl-there's a syntax error which Santosh has encountered, i've asked him to publish the accidentally-private message he sent me12:34
sadoon[m]<lkcl-> "although i feel deeply betrayed..." <- do tell :D12:35
lkcl-systemd and the removal of python 2.712:37
lkcl-i'm literally having to run wicd-gtk in a special debian/10 chroot12:37
lkcl-i've had to recompile xorg-server after modifying debian/rules12:38
lkcl-the wicd-gtk debian/10 chroot i actually had to make sure wicd-daemon could specially access the d-bus socket12:38
lkcl-that's the only way i can manage WIFI from a stand-alone GUI that is *not* tied in to fucking systemd systemd systemd systemd systemd12:39
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sadoon[m]Ah I thought by recently you meant in the last few months12:42
sadoon[m]systemd is a big turnoff12:42
sadoon[m]hence why devuan exists and is somewhat popular12:42
sadoon[m]technically I do use devuan on my machines but I refer to it as debian for simplicity12:43
sadoon[m](where I can use it*)12:43
lkcl-devuan is extremely hypocritical unfortunately12:44
lkcl-it states publicly, "we are inclusive of all init systems"12:44
lkcl-... so where's systemd?12:44
lkcl-octavius found anti-x which at least hilariously is up-front about their removal of systemd :)12:45
lkcl-and they also integrate better with e.g. debian/testing12:45
lkcl-devuan is stable-only and so quite problematic for ongoing development12:46
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sadoon[m]MX Linux is also quite nice and is similar to antix but offers you a boot time option of systemd or sysvinit12:49
sadoon[m]It's also extremely popular (based on distrowatch mind you)12:50
lkcl-well that's actually pretty easy: debian has that as well12:50
sadoon[m]Wait. what?12:50
lkcl-yes.  you install sysvinit-core12:50
lkcl-except... wark-wark, doing so *removes* the conflicting systemd package12:50
sadoon[m]and then you can boot using sysvinit and "everything works"??12:50
lkcl-which in turn removes12:50
sadoon[m]Well at least in MX it doesn't have that issue12:51
lkcl-that's pretty damn good, how the hell did they manage that12:51
sadoon[m]I am now interested and will check out an iso to see heh12:51
sadoon[m]They probably removed the hard dependency on sysd and made sysvinit scripts a la devuan et al, and then technically it should just work12:52
sadoon[m]Then again when you think about it, going back to porting debian: it enables doing other crazy stuff like unofficial ubuntu ports, mx linux, antix, hell even stuff like zorin-os, all on ppc*12:53
lkcl-well as long as all those packages xserver-xorg pulseaudio cupsd etc. etc. have had their dependency on systemd removed12:53
lkcl-then yes, they all should "just work"12:53
sadoon[m]And that's part of why I'm more convinced porting debian is more useful than another gentoo build12:55
sadoon[m]I'm going to start by getting a buildd set up on a small vm and building small random packages to see how things go12:55
sadoon[m]Still no access to my talos so this is all on my dual core 8gb ram x86_64 laptop lol, but at least it'll help to understand the process12:56
markostbh, if I would be searching a new distro to test right now, I would probably checkout qubes OS12:57
markosit's actually more than a distro12:58
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markosbut it's certainly interesting12:58
markosthinking of installing it on a system I have here12:58
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sadoon[m]It's more geared towards extremely paranoid users who want to isolate everything (I fit that criteria sometimes lol) and is much less of a general purpose desktop/server OS13:00
sadoon[m]So actually it's even more interesting than I suspected:13:10
sadoon[m]MX Linux uses systemd-shim, which emulates the systemd functions that are required to run the helpers without actually using the init service. This means that SvsVinit remains the default init yet MX Linux can use crucial Debian packages that have systemd dependencies such as CUPS and Network Manager. This approach also allows the user to retain the ability to choose his/her preferred init on the boot screen (GRUB).13:10
sadoon[m]Quite awesome.13:10
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lkcl-sadoon[m], you have access to  talos1.libre-soc.org13:22
sadoon[m]Will definitely utilize it once I learn how to properly use buildd, it's best to start on a local vm in case I mess something up13:24
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* lkcl- snorts13:38
lkcl-use the devscripts to create an schroot for yourself13:38
lkcl-total 3213:39
lkcl-drwxr-xr-x  3 sadoon sadoon 4096 Aug 29  2021 dev-env-setup13:40
lkcl-home/sadoon# ls -altr13:40
sadoon[m]I'm weird, I need something to first work in front of me or I can't wrap my mind around it :p13:43
lkcl-haha yeah. a cognitive disconnect of a remote machine13:46
lkcl-i'll see if i can find the joke-glossary that went around our uni in 198813:47
lkcl-hm that's going to be tough13:50
lkcl-it was really funny.13:50
lkcl-hacker: can patch binaries, and whistle at 9600 baud modems and get a connection-response13:51
lkcl-novice: has difficulty with a terminal, esp. remembering to press return13:51
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lkcl-it was one of the first emails i ever received, distributed across the computing department.14:11
lkcl-i *might* have a contact from my year who may have saved it - or at least remember it14:11
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lkclMX-Linux, i noticed the systemd-shim, that's exactly and precisely what i won't tolerate, because it relies on code written by pottering (libsystemd0)16:07
lkcli did the due diligence and research, even tested him out by communicating on the dev mailing list to test their receptiveness to new ideas16:08
lkclthe experience was everything i expected it to be, culminating in censorship within 48 hours.16:09
lkclthis also tells you everything you need to know16:10
lkclCVE-2022-25293A systemd stack-based buffer overflow in WatchGuard Firebox and XTM appliances allows an authenticated remote attacker to potentially execute arbitrary code by initiating a firmware update with a malicious upgrade image. This vulnerability impacts Fireware OS before 12.7.2_U2, 12.x before 12.1.3_U8, and 12.2.x through 12.5.x before 12.5.9_U2.16:10
lkclSearch Results16:10
lkclThere are 69 CVE Records that match your search.16:10
lkclCVE-2020-13776systemd through v245 mishandles numerical usernames such as ones composed of decimal digits or 0x followed by hex digits, as demonstrated by use of root privileges when privileges of the 0x0 user account were intended. NOTE: this issue exists because of an incomplete fix for CVE-2017-1000082.16:11
lkclCVE-2020-13529An exploitable denial-of-service vulnerability exists in Systemd 245. A specially crafted DHCP FORCERENEW packet can cause a server running the DHCP client to be vulnerable to a DHCP ACK spoofing attack16:11
lkclyou just have to be completely out of your goddamn mind to use something with that many vulnerabilities *every year*, running as PID-116:13
markosI admit I dislike systemd, but unfortunately I don't have the time -or will- anymore to do this stuff from scratch, like I would have done eg. 20y ago16:25
markostime to boot isn't an argument anymore, booting in less than 5sec, hah, I was doing that in 2007 with systems that were far less performant than today's16:26
markosthe problem is that even if I ditch systemd for my daily workstation, I will still have to use it on servers I use16:27
markosI can't just switch 20 servers/vms16:28
markos-probably more16:28
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sadoon[m]<lkcl> "MX-Linux, i noticed the systemd..." <- Unfortunate. I'm not sure what antix uses though, seems devuan is the cleanest way to get rid of sysd17:10
lkclantix like devuan gets rid of it entirely17:15
sadoon[m]nice, good to know17:29
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lkclmarkos fortunately for servers you absolutely do not need systemd and with a few incredibly stupid exceptions web services you'd expect do not rely on it21:45
lkclkanzure, thx21:50
kanzurei think he's going to use chipignite21:50
lkclmeeting 10min markos toshywoshy cesar ghostmansd[m] kanzure jn programmerjake21:51
lkclas long as he keeps it FOSSHW anyone can21:51
kanzurenot this time, but let me know if you need me21:59
programmerjakelkcl: be in the meeting in a few min, got distracted catching up on irc22:06
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