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| sadoon[m] | well | 10:03 |
|---|---|---|
| sadoon[m] | https://wiki.debian.org/buildd | 10:03 |
| sadoon[m] | On the one hand I feel dumb, on the other, their system is still complicated | 10:03 |
| sadoon[m] | a VM with buildd might be the perfect solution apparently | 10:04 |
| lkcl- | sadoon[m], it's managing - with no fuss and no pomp or self-aggrandisement or self-promotion - one of the most complex and comprehensive software distribution projects in the world. | 11:18 |
| lkcl- | 40,000+ packages across 12+ different types of hardware including IBM s390 mainframe and Motorola 68000. | 11:18 |
| sadoon[m] | I do have a lot of respect for what they do, of course, hence why it's my distro of choice on all my devices | 11:20 |
| sadoon[m] | I've thought a lot about moving to gentoo simply because of their build system but where gentoo fails is debian's main selling point: it is extremely predictable, hence why projects like libre-soc use a debian chroot | 11:24 |
| lkcl- | in a word... yes | 11:40 |
| lkcl- | although i feel deeply betrayed and astonished by some of their decisions recently. | 11:41 |
| lkcl- | markos, mitch did the stats on imcdt36.s (original, ffmpeg) https://groups.google.com/g/comp.arch/c/aZQvbjqf2z8/m/ujKw-rryAAAJ | 11:52 |
| lkcl- | There are 64 FMULs | 11:52 |
| lkcl- | There are 133 FADD/FSUBs | 11:52 |
| lkcl- | There are 19 constants used 24 times | 11:52 |
| lkcl- | Constants are used 1.26 times each | 11:52 |
| lkcl- | Constants are used in 12.2% of FP instructions | 11:52 |
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| lkcl- | ghostmansd[m], two new RFPs for you have been approved. there's a stack of outstanding ones, they did 2 for me yesterday, so they're obviously getting through them | 12:24 |
| lkcl- | but this is right smack in the middle of reviewing over a *hundred and fifty* new Grant applications on 1st aug (!) | 12:25 |
| ghostmansd[m] | lkcl, cool, will wait | 12:25 |
| lkcl- | Veera[m], ah ha, i have something for you. can you try running the coriolis2 build and the build_full_4k_sram.sh script? | 12:29 |
| lkcl- | and investigate what's going on? | 12:29 |
| lkcl- | there's a syntax error which Santosh has encountered, i've asked him to publish the accidentally-private message he sent me | 12:34 |
| sadoon[m] | <lkcl-> "although i feel deeply betrayed..." <- do tell :D | 12:35 |
| lkcl- | systemd and the removal of python 2.7 | 12:37 |
| lkcl- | i'm literally having to run wicd-gtk in a special debian/10 chroot | 12:37 |
| lkcl- | i've had to recompile xorg-server after modifying debian/rules | 12:38 |
| lkcl- | the wicd-gtk debian/10 chroot i actually had to make sure wicd-daemon could specially access the d-bus socket | 12:38 |
| lkcl- | that's the only way i can manage WIFI from a stand-alone GUI that is *not* tied in to fucking systemd systemd systemd systemd systemd | 12:39 |
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| sadoon[m] | Ah I thought by recently you meant in the last few months | 12:42 |
| sadoon[m] | systemd is a big turnoff | 12:42 |
| sadoon[m] | hence why devuan exists and is somewhat popular | 12:42 |
| sadoon[m] | technically I do use devuan on my machines but I refer to it as debian for simplicity | 12:43 |
| sadoon[m] | (where I can use it*) | 12:43 |
| lkcl- | devuan is extremely hypocritical unfortunately | 12:44 |
| lkcl- | it states publicly, "we are inclusive of all init systems" | 12:44 |
| lkcl- | ... so where's systemd? | 12:44 |
| lkcl- | octavius found anti-x which at least hilariously is up-front about their removal of systemd :) | 12:45 |
| lkcl- | and they also integrate better with e.g. debian/testing | 12:45 |
| lkcl- | devuan is stable-only and so quite problematic for ongoing development | 12:46 |
| sadoon[m] | true | 12:46 |
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| sadoon[m] | MX Linux is also quite nice and is similar to antix but offers you a boot time option of systemd or sysvinit | 12:49 |
| lkcl- | niiice | 12:50 |
| sadoon[m] | It's also extremely popular (based on distrowatch mind you) | 12:50 |
| lkcl- | well that's actually pretty easy: debian has that as well | 12:50 |
| sadoon[m] | Wait. what? | 12:50 |
| sadoon[m] | O_O | 12:50 |
| lkcl- | yes. you install sysvinit-core | 12:50 |
| lkcl- | except... wark-wark, doing so *removes* the conflicting systemd package | 12:50 |
| sadoon[m] | and then you can boot using sysvinit and "everything works"?? | 12:50 |
| lkcl- | which in turn removes | 12:50 |
| lkcl- | xserver-xorg | 12:50 |
| lkcl- | pulseaudio | 12:50 |
| lkcl- | cupsd | 12:51 |
| sadoon[m] | Poop. | 12:51 |
| sadoon[m] | Well at least in MX it doesn't have that issue | 12:51 |
| lkcl- | that's pretty damn good, how the hell did they manage that | 12:51 |
| sadoon[m] | I am now interested and will check out an iso to see heh | 12:51 |
| sadoon[m] | They probably removed the hard dependency on sysd and made sysvinit scripts a la devuan et al, and then technically it should just work | 12:52 |
| sadoon[m] | Then again when you think about it, going back to porting debian: it enables doing other crazy stuff like unofficial ubuntu ports, mx linux, antix, hell even stuff like zorin-os, all on ppc* | 12:53 |
| lkcl- | well as long as all those packages xserver-xorg pulseaudio cupsd etc. etc. have had their dependency on systemd removed | 12:53 |
| lkcl- | then yes, they all should "just work" | 12:53 |
| lkcl- | yes | 12:54 |
| sadoon[m] | And that's part of why I'm more convinced porting debian is more useful than another gentoo build | 12:55 |
| sadoon[m] | I'm going to start by getting a buildd set up on a small vm and building small random packages to see how things go | 12:55 |
| sadoon[m] | Still no access to my talos so this is all on my dual core 8gb ram x86_64 laptop lol, but at least it'll help to understand the process | 12:56 |
| markos | tbh, if I would be searching a new distro to test right now, I would probably checkout qubes OS | 12:57 |
| markos | it's actually more than a distro | 12:58 |
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| markos | but it's certainly interesting | 12:58 |
| markos | thinking of installing it on a system I have here | 12:58 |
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| sadoon[m] | It's more geared towards extremely paranoid users who want to isolate everything (I fit that criteria sometimes lol) and is much less of a general purpose desktop/server OS | 13:00 |
| sadoon[m] | So actually it's even more interesting than I suspected: | 13:10 |
| sadoon[m] | MX Linux uses systemd-shim, which emulates the systemd functions that are required to run the helpers without actually using the init service. This means that SvsVinit remains the default init yet MX Linux can use crucial Debian packages that have systemd dependencies such as CUPS and Network Manager. This approach also allows the user to retain the ability to choose his/her preferred init on the boot screen (GRUB). | 13:10 |
| sadoon[m] | Quite awesome. | 13:10 |
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| lkcl- | sadoon[m], you have access to talos1.libre-soc.org | 13:22 |
| sadoon[m] | Will definitely utilize it once I learn how to properly use buildd, it's best to start on a local vm in case I mess something up | 13:24 |
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| * lkcl- snorts | 13:38 | |
| lkcl- | use the devscripts to create an schroot for yourself | 13:38 |
| lkcl- | total 32 | 13:39 |
| lkcl- | drwxr-xr-x 3 sadoon sadoon 4096 Aug 29 2021 dev-env-setup | 13:40 |
| lkcl- | home/sadoon# ls -altr | 13:40 |
| sadoon[m] | I'm weird, I need something to first work in front of me or I can't wrap my mind around it :p | 13:43 |
| lkcl- | haha yeah. a cognitive disconnect of a remote machine | 13:46 |
| lkcl- | i'll see if i can find the joke-glossary that went around our uni in 1988 | 13:47 |
| lkcl- | hm that's going to be tough | 13:50 |
| lkcl- | it was really funny. | 13:50 |
| lkcl- | hacker: can patch binaries, and whistle at 9600 baud modems and get a connection-response | 13:51 |
| lkcl- | novice: has difficulty with a terminal, esp. remembering to press return | 13:51 |
| lkcl- | :) | 13:52 |
| sadoon[m] | Heheh | 13:54 |
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| lkcl- | it was one of the first emails i ever received, distributed across the computing department. | 14:11 |
| lkcl- | i *might* have a contact from my year who may have saved it - or at least remember it | 14:11 |
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| lkcl | MX-Linux, i noticed the systemd-shim, that's exactly and precisely what i won't tolerate, because it relies on code written by pottering (libsystemd0) | 16:07 |
| lkcl | i did the due diligence and research, even tested him out by communicating on the dev mailing list to test their receptiveness to new ideas | 16:08 |
| lkcl | the experience was everything i expected it to be, culminating in censorship within 48 hours. | 16:09 |
| lkcl | this also tells you everything you need to know | 16:10 |
| lkcl | https://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvekey.cgi?keyword=systemd | 16:10 |
| lkcl | CVE-2022-25293A systemd stack-based buffer overflow in WatchGuard Firebox and XTM appliances allows an authenticated remote attacker to potentially execute arbitrary code by initiating a firmware update with a malicious upgrade image. This vulnerability impacts Fireware OS before 12.7.2_U2, 12.x before 12.1.3_U8, and 12.2.x through 12.5.x before 12.5.9_U2. | 16:10 |
| lkcl | Search Results | 16:10 |
| lkcl | There are 69 CVE Records that match your search. | 16:10 |
| lkcl | CVE-2020-13776systemd through v245 mishandles numerical usernames such as ones composed of decimal digits or 0x followed by hex digits, as demonstrated by use of root privileges when privileges of the 0x0 user account were intended. NOTE: this issue exists because of an incomplete fix for CVE-2017-1000082. | 16:11 |
| lkcl | CVE-2020-13529An exploitable denial-of-service vulnerability exists in Systemd 245. A specially crafted DHCP FORCERENEW packet can cause a server running the DHCP client to be vulnerable to a DHCP ACK spoofing attack | 16:11 |
| lkcl | you just have to be completely out of your goddamn mind to use something with that many vulnerabilities *every year*, running as PID-1 | 16:13 |
| markos | I admit I dislike systemd, but unfortunately I don't have the time -or will- anymore to do this stuff from scratch, like I would have done eg. 20y ago | 16:25 |
| markos | time to boot isn't an argument anymore, booting in less than 5sec, hah, I was doing that in 2007 with systems that were far less performant than today's | 16:26 |
| markos | the problem is that even if I ditch systemd for my daily workstation, I will still have to use it on servers I use | 16:27 |
| markos | I can't just switch 20 servers/vms | 16:28 |
| markos | -probably more | 16:28 |
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| sadoon[m] | <lkcl> "MX-Linux, i noticed the systemd..." <- Unfortunate. I'm not sure what antix uses though, seems devuan is the cleanest way to get rid of sysd | 17:10 |
| lkcl | antix like devuan gets rid of it entirely | 17:15 |
| sadoon[m] | nice, good to know | 17:29 |
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| lkcl | markos fortunately for servers you absolutely do not need systemd and with a few incredibly stupid exceptions web services you'd expect do not rely on it | 21:45 |
| kanzure | https://groups.google.com/g/diybio/c/V3OYVBxaH04/m/iRMNhnVMCgAJ | 21:48 |
| lkcl | kanzure, thx | 21:50 |
| kanzure | i think he's going to use chipignite | 21:50 |
| lkcl | meeting 10min markos toshywoshy cesar ghostmansd[m] kanzure jn programmerjake | 21:51 |
| lkcl | as long as he keeps it FOSSHW anyone can | 21:51 |
| kanzure | not this time, but let me know if you need me | 21:59 |
| programmerjake | lkcl: be in the meeting in a few min, got distracted catching up on irc | 22:06 |
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