Thursday, 2023-09-07

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openpowerbot[irc] <programmerjake> lkcl: I closed and assigned budget to the ternlogi and grev[w][i] bugs (grevlut left for later task), so there's money available for you, see bugzilla emails03:36
openpowerbot[irc] <programmerjake> I left the full budget estimation for the parent task (bitmanip) for later, currently it only has the grev and ternlogi budget03:37
openpowerbot[irc] <lkcl_> the grev* instructions all have to go, sigh. grevluti is expensive but incredibly powerful03:47
openpowerbot[irc] <programmerjake> k03:49
openpowerbot[irc] <lkcl_> on its own, being able to express that many regular constants, and they're so clearly useful?03:52
openpowerbot[irc] <lkcl_> svp64:vector-immediate (when added later), hoo-boy :)03:52
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markos_programmerjake, I'm using this implementation, which already has a unit test:
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openpowerbot[irc] <snowwolflair[m]> Am i in the correct place now?09:41
lkclyes you are09:45
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openpowerbot[irc] <lkcl_> snowwolflair[m], ping test with notification10:05
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openpowerbot[irc] <snowwolflair[m]> 👍️11:15
openpowerbot[irc] <snowwolflair[m]> cesar: thank you for the help11:15
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openpowerbot[irc] <lkcl_> octavius: you asked snowwolflair[m] (privately) for "where is PO9", you can now ask (publicly) on the IRC channel which will help engagement and discussion - see this commit;a=commitdiff;h=902ecc and the one after it13:37
openpowerbot[irc] <lkcl_> toshywoshy, i made some (minor) clarifications to the PO9 RFC;a=commitdiff;h=ebc5475313:37
openpowerbot[irc] <lkcl_> octavius ^ (also relevant for your private question which for future reference can be public in this channel now that snowwolflair[m] is in it)13:38
openpowerbot[irc] <snowwolflair[m]> Yes that will help me handle any questions13:39
openpowerbot[irc] <lkcl_> the Makefile "pulls in" the relevant pages into RFCs;a=blob;f=openpower/sv/rfc/Makefile;hb=HEAD13:40
openpowerbot[irc] <lkcl_> and auto-generates Latex which then auto-generates PDFs13:40
openpowerbot[irc] <lkcl_> so you see here ls001.po9:;a=blob;f=openpower/sv/rfc/ls001.po9.mdwn;hb=HEAD13:40
openpowerbot[irc] <lkcl_> at the *very bottom* of that page is a markdown "inline include" that pulls in the entire po9_encoding page
openpowerbot[irc] <lkcl_> 8113:41
openpowerbot[irc] <lkcl_> 82 [[!inline pages="openpower/sv/po9_encoding" raw=yes ]]13:41
openpowerbot[irc] <lkcl_> programmerjake and i spent some time writing pandoc plugins that "do approximately the same job as ikiwiki" so that we *do not* have to write markdown spec files...13:42
openpowerbot[irc] <lkcl_> ... oh and then **** around for months "hand-converting" them to latex13:43
openpowerbot[irc] <lkcl_> no13:43
openpowerbot[irc] <lkcl_> write once, treat the markdown as "Canonical" and create a pandoc plugin that *generates* RFCs, *generates* PDFs, *generates* quotes diffs quotes for the OPF ISA WG13:44
openpowerbot[irc] <lkcl_> ohhh that's interesting
openpowerbot[irc] <lkcl_> IBM's z-Series team added something-like-AVX to the z-Series mainframe ISA??13:56
openpowerbot[irc] <lkcl_> oink?13:56
markos_lkcl, well, there is the Z Vector extension, has been there for years, it's very similar to VSX14:01
markos_since z13, I've done the port to Eigen :-)14:02
lkclah ok it's "VSX". does it have masks? (predication per-element)?14:13
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lkclthen it's a PackedSIMD Extension not a Vector Extension.14:13
markos_yes exactly14:13
lkcli reaallly wish people would get this through their heads. sigh14:14
markos_well, it's still fixed-width vectors that are a pita to use but hey, it has worked for 20+ years now14:15
markos_even compilers call them __vector(s) :)14:15
octaviuslkcl, thanks for your response.15:26
octaviusThe question I asked was:15:26
octavius"How is PO9 opcode space going to be used (and if it is enough space)?"15:26
octavius"I seem to remember PO9 is 64-bit instruction space, but that Luke came up with a technique to put 32-bit instructions within this opcode space."15:26
octaviusNow after reading the po9_encoding, discussion, and ls001 pages it seems that depending on opf's decision on where to allocate, this encoding space will be used for most of libre-soc's extensions (except svp64 management insns).15:26
octaviusAlso a question for markos_ (or ghostmansd[m]). Trying to run the mp3 "make tests" in openpower/media with openpower (latest git d530f465 on master). What branch do I need to use to have binutils (-mlibresoc) flag?15:38
markos_octavius, keep in mind that I haven't really finished those15:39
octaviusAH OK15:40
octaviussorry caps lock15:40
markos_but you would need the binutils as compiled in the dev-env-scripts15:40
octaviusany examples I can run?15:40
markos_yeah, we were out of time for the mp3 programs and we just left them for another time15:41
markos_av1, libvpx, chacha20, are ones that should work15:41
markos_unless there were changes in binutils that break compilation15:41
markos_but I'm not aware of any15:42
octaviusThanks markos_, will setup binutils and try it out :)15:55
openpowerbot[irc] <lkcl_> octavius: the only one that works is the apply_window_float one.16:24
openpowerbot[irc] <lkcl_> neither ghostmansd nor konstantinos know about this because they were written by a contributor that sadly took a compromised vaccine a couple of years ago16:25
openpowerbot[irc] <lkcl_> they haven't been updated since, and use the *old* syntax (0.v instead of *0)16:25
markos_well, I do have some half-finished code here, that I was working on using the new syntax, but it's in really early stages and nothing works -obviously16:26
openpowerbot[irc] <lkcl_> the only tests working the last time i tried them are the mp3_0 ones, which you have to "drill down" and actually read the README16:26
markos_never committed it because it was terrible :)16:26
openpowerbot[irc] <lkcl_> doesn't matter - please commit it anyway!16:26
openpowerbot[irc] <lkcl_> that's *really* important.16:27
openpowerbot[irc] <lkcl_> you did _some_ work - someone else can carry it on, plus we can get another grant for it16:27
openpowerbot[irc] <lkcl_> please please please always always always *commit your work*.16:27
markos_ok, I thought it didn't matter about this task but sure, no problem, I'll just put a WARNING: INCOMPLETE CODE :)16:27
markos_ok, will commit it today even16:27
markos_I actually did forget about this code entirely16:28
openpowerbot[irc] <lkcl_> the opensourceecology project has a hard rule that if you leave work for longer than 60 seconds that has not been committed and pushed, it's a "red flag"16:28
openpowerbot[irc] <lkcl_> (!)16:28
markos_hahaha, 60 seconds :)16:28
openpowerbot[irc] <lkcl_> yes!16:28
markos_try shifting that << 416:28
openpowerbot[irc] <lkcl_> their rules are designed for large-contributor-bases at weekend workshops16:28
markos_and that would be close to my actual number16:29
markos_I don't want to polute my git history with crap commits, basically16:29
markos_anyway, I'll just commit this one now16:29
openpowerbot[irc] <lkcl_> > " polute my git history"16:30
openpowerbot[irc] <lkcl_> really don't worry about it16:30
openpowerbot[irc] <lkcl_> i routinely commit multiple single-line commits, up to 30 a day16:30
openpowerbot[irc] <lkcl_> or i do "atomic" commits if you know what i mean by that.  "one purpose, one commit" is the general rule16:31
openpowerbot[irc] <lkcl_> this is all in HDL_workflow16:31
openpowerbot[irc] <lkcl_> if you find during the writing of the commit that you are tempted to use the word "and", then you should have committed what you had done *way* before16:32
markos_yes, I understand, there are 2 lines of thought here, frequent commits whatever the result, and atomic commits that do not break compilation or CI16:32
markos_I tend to do the latter16:32
markos_this is from working in larger projects with many people16:33
markos_if one commits something experimental that breaks compilation for everyone else16:33
openpowerbot[irc] <lkcl_> frequent commits whatever the result are a no-no because we work in master-branch typically16:33
markos_that's really bad16:33
openpowerbot[irc] <lkcl_> yes absolutely16:33
openpowerbot[irc] <lkcl_> again this is in HDL_workflow already16:33
openpowerbot[irc] <lkcl_> but likewise "fixed X *AND* added Y *AND* solved Z *AND* worked-around problem W" - this is also a no-no16:34
markos_also, a change might span several files, so I prefer to group my commits16:34
markos_or rather not group the commits16:34
openpowerbot[irc] <lkcl_> because if X turns out to be a mistake, you have to revert X *AND* Y *AND* Z *AND* W16:35
markos_but use a single commit that is around a single change, regardless of the number of files16:35
openpowerbot[irc] <lkcl_> which is a serious amount of work16:35
markos_yes exactly that16:35
openpowerbot[irc] <lkcl_> hence the rule: "single-purpose, single-commit"16:35
markos_completely agree16:35
markos_I guess I'm just slower then16:35
openpowerbot[irc] <lkcl_> again - also in HDL_workflow - what i have done routinely is "care less" about stuff that is "leaf-node" (and has no unit tests at all)16:36
openpowerbot[irc] <lkcl_> slower and more meticulous :)16:36
markos_I mean 30 commits a day sounds like I would be with 1kg coffee in my veins :D16:36
openpowerbot[irc] <snowwolflair[m]> Absolute minimum level of coffee to do anything useful 🤣16:37
openpowerbot[irc] <lkcl_> it's an asperger's thing. "hard grind and bloody-minded persistence" over "slow meticulous thought"16:37
markos_(well 1kg would probably mean I'd be dead :D really)16:37
openpowerbot[irc] <lkcl_> and your liver would be entirely empty of glucose :)16:38
markos_but but caffeine!!!16:38
openpowerbot[irc] <lkcl_> caffeine triggers your liver to release glucose stores (thank you for that tip snowwolflair[m])16:39
openpowerbot[irc] <snowwolflair[m]> 👍️16:39
markos_hm, I just did a git pull and I saw that some .py files in openpower/decoder/isa are not being tracked by git anymore, are they autogenerated? can I remove them?16:43
openpowerbot[irc] <programmerjake> yes16:54
openpowerbot[irc] <lkcl_> ok so "pywriter" and "pyfnwriter" auto-generate files from the markdown16:54
openpowerbot[irc] <programmerjake> run make, it will tell you all about it16:54
* openpowerbot [irc] <lkcl_> leaves it to programmerjake to explain16:54
markos_lkcl, ah, my bad, I had not converted to new syntax yet, it's still the old syntax, what I did start doing was I added the C wrappers for the python simulator so I could do the same thing as I did for av116:54
markos_programmerjake, thanks will do16:55
openpowerbot[irc] <programmerjake> basically, those are the isa pseudocode markdown files translated to python, I moved the canonical output location to its own folder, and added an error message if you don't clean up the old files16:55
openpowerbot[irc] <programmerjake> that way we can add new markdown files without worrying about conflicts with other random files in the folder16:56
openpowerbot[irc] <programmerjake> the only autogenerated file that stays in the old location is all.py16:57
markos_perfect, thanks, worked like a charm16:58
markos_nice touch with the warning too16:58
openpowerbot[irc] <programmerjake> do try and make it a habit to always run make after running git pull, i optimized it to be quite fast (few sec)16:58
openpowerbot[irc] <programmerjake> thx16:59
markos_yup, it's much faster than before that's true16:59
markos_nice job16:59
openpowerbot[irc] <programmerjake> maybe i'll make the python files hash the input files at load time and complain if they don't match what they were last time they were compiled17:01
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markos_programmerjake, fwiw, I have already begun drafting out the implementation, when it's done we can always look back and test it against other libraries, but for now, the included unit test is good enough17:37
markos_I mean re ed2551917:38
markos_lkcl, no need for escalation, but it's just even if I wanted to test multiple implementations, there is just too little time17:38
markos_we can worry about this later17:39
markos_fwiw, if it's wrong it's wrong and it should be caught with this single unit test, once we get a working piece of code, adding more unit tests will be much easier17:40
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openpowerbot[irc] <cesar[m]1> markos_, want to try a new bit file on your Nexys Video? I have a good feeling about this one.18:20
markos_hi cesar, I just did, I wanted to tell you but I didn't see you online, I forget that many people use the matrix bridge18:22
markos_so it did build and get programmed just fine18:23
markos_green light is on, but I don't see anything else, what is this supposed to do?18:23
markos_I missed the earlier message18:24
openpowerbot[irc] <cesar[m]1> Hmm, it's not supposed to be built, I had it pre-built.18:25
openpowerbot[irc] <cesar[m]1> Are you sure it's the latest one?18:25
openpowerbot[irc] <cesar[m]1> It's in the symbiflow directory.18:26
markos_I called ./, shouldn't I have?18:32 does seem to build switchled.bit file18:32
markos_ah sorry18:33
markos_I was in the wrong dir18:33
markos_programming now18:33
markos_some of the leds are flashing now18:33
openpowerbot[irc] <cesar[m]1> Yay!18:34
markos_the last 4 leds18:34
openpowerbot[irc] <cesar[m]1> It's supposed to be a binary counter.18:34
openpowerbot[irc] <cesar[m]1> ... with 4 leds, exactly.18:34
markos_yes, it seems to be working :)18:34
markos_so you got the board to work, this is a nice milestone!18:35
markos_next step: linux :D18:35
openpowerbot[irc] <programmerjake> now, for something more complex...18:35
markos_joking :)18:35
openpowerbot[irc] <programmerjake> maybe that uart demo i wrote?18:36
markos_sure, I hope I have a 2nd usb cable to use :)18:36
markos_yes I do18:37
openpowerbot[irc] <programmerjake> in gitlab-build-utils branch of utils.git18:37
markos_one is plugged in the prog port, the other will go to uart port18:37
markos_well, as soon as cesar tells me how to do it18:37
openpowerbot[irc] <programmerjake> it may need some adjusting to get the right fpga pins and clock rate18:38
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openpowerbot[irc] <programmerjake> will need to be added to;a=blob;;h=76a8b0900a9c80c7a8307a242414f97ed2179f1c;hb=refs/heads/gitlab-build-utils#l24218:39
markos_ok, probably during the weekend18:42
openpowerbot[irc] <programmerjake> all of the adjusting should be in nmigen_boards, the only thing that should need to change in utils.git is adding the right platform class to the list of options18:44
markos_well, cesar used symbiflow here18:44
markos_and I see a nexys_video definition file18:45
markos_that he had to add18:45
markos_so to make it work on nmigen it will require some work still18:45
openpowerbot[irc] <programmerjake> nmigen should only need the board class, which has all the options for pins and toolchains18:46
openpowerbot[irc] <programmerjake> you could probably base it on the nexys4ddr which might be similar:
markos_nmigen_boards already has a board class, but it doesn't seem to work, at least it didn't when I tried with the cmds given by cesar and octavius18:53
markos_we already found a problem in x3csprog where it masked one bit out in the board id value and it failed to detect it even18:54
markos_and from what I see x3csprog is completely unmaintained so good luck having this bug fixed18:55
markos_we could pick it up ourselves, or we could just pick a different tool to use18:55
markos_but cesar's approach worked, symbiflow + openFPGAloader18:56
markos_I guess it doesn't hurt using openFPGAloader to flash the board, but yes, it would be nice to have nmigen fixed18:57
openpowerbot[irc] <programmerjake> the board class supplies the command to program the fpga, so that should be easy to change18:58
markos_yes, if you know what to change18:59
openpowerbot[irc] <programmerjake> it's right here:
openpowerbot[irc] <programmerjake> except in the nexys video file19:00
markos_yes I know19:00
markos_that's what cesar has already done in his own tree :)19:00
openpowerbot[irc] <cesar[m]1> Thanks, programmerjake , I'll update the board class and give Symbiflow and openFPGAloader as defaults for the Nexys Video.19:01
openpowerbot[irc] <cesar[m]1> I'll also update the Symbiflow dev script to include support to the xc7a200.19:02
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ghostmansdA weird question. We cannot have operands which cannot fit into 32 bits, even after decoding, can we?19:40
ghostmansdFor vanilla instructions, the question makes no sense, since we basically would've been unable to fit such operands. But what about SVP64 and vector instructions?19:41
ghostmansdFor SVP64 registers, we have 2**7 range. Anything else I'm missing?19:42
ghostmansdI think such large values cannot fit anywhere, even with prefixes. But I want to be sure.19:43
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openpowerbot[irc] <programmerjake> po1 immediates are 34 bit...20:04
openpowerbot[irc] <programmerjake> lkcl's vector immediate idea allows up to 512 byte immediates afaict20:05
openpowerbot[irc] <programmerjake> no, wait 2048 byte20:05
openpowerbot[irc] <programmerjake> 64 subvectors of 4x64 bits: 64*4*8=204820:06
openpowerbot[irc] <programmerjake> individual elements max out at 64-bit though20:07
openpowerbot[irc] <programmerjake> (though they'll likely be extended to 128-bit at some point in the more distant future)20:08
ghostmansdI mean encoding.20:16
ghostmansdEven if value of operand turns out to be bigger... is there chance that it's encoded more than 32 bits?20:16
ghostmansdThese PO1 immediates... Do they kinda magically become 34 bit (like it happens with say GPR operand remap), or they MUST be 34-bit?20:17
ghostmansdI suspect the former.20:18
ghostmansdIf the immediates go over the same process which happens for GPR/FPR/CR remap -- fine, I don't care. If this just extends vanilla PPC instruction, I'll handle it separately.20:19
ghostmansdIf, however, we have a monolithic instruction with an operand bigger than 32 bits, this is more difficult.20:20
ghostmansdI assume we don't have these though, as Luke was very explicit about having custom 64-bit instructions which don't have conterparts in vanilla world.20:21
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openpowerbot[irc] <programmerjake> the vector immediates are explicit up to 2048 byte immediates20:22
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openpowerbot[irc] <programmerjake> that said, i would just handle them as a special case of SVP6420:23
openpowerbot[irc] <programmerjake> (realistically, i think they're a bad idea that shouldn't be implemented, but luke wants them...)20:24
openpowerbot[irc] <programmerjake> for now, you can assume immediates fit in 32 bits and change it later if necessary20:25
openpowerbot[irc] <programmerjake> since vector immediates are not ready for binutils or the simulator yet20:26
ghostmansdOK, got it! Thank you as always, Jacob!20:32
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openpowerbot[irc] <lkcl_> > maybe i'll make the python files hash the input files23:07
openpowerbot[irc] <lkcl_> please don't start implementing in python the job that's done by GNU make23:07
openpowerbot[irc] <lkcl_> that route ended up with scons.23:08
openpowerbot[irc] <lkcl_> and it was quite hilarious to see a patch submitted for python to replace autoconf with scons... which is written 100% in python.23:08
* openpowerbot [irc] <lkcl_> facepalm23:08
openpowerbot[irc] <programmerjake> the issue is that users don't realize they need to run make, and then wonder why it doesn't work23:09
openpowerbot[irc] <programmerjake> so the hash checking tells them to re-run make23:10
lkclit is better to use make's built-in ability to detect timestamps than to piss about trying to replicate the features of make.23:12
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lkclplease, really: don't spend time on replacing/duplicating the capabilities of a 40-year-old unix tool.23:12
openpowerbot[irc] <programmerjake> they won't realize they need to run make so make can detect stuff needs to be rebuilt.23:13
lkcljust... stop. please. listen.23:13
lkcl*don't* replicate what is in GNU make in python.23:14
openpowerbot[irc] <programmerjake> k, i'm thinking for 24h23:14
lkclok good. additionally there are much higher priorities than "optimising the last few seconds" out of the workflow.23:15
lkclremember that the two grants cryptoprimitives and cavatools have *expired*23:15
lkclwe need to get the work in and the RFPs in as promptly as possible, not create more "make-work" distractions23:16
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openpowerbot[irc] <programmerjake> i'll note what i proposed isn't about optimizing workflow time, but alerting users to prevent massive confusion23:18
openpowerbot[irc] <programmerjake> yeah, i'll look through those grants more soon, probably today23:18
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lkcl> alerting users to prevent massive confusion23:23
lkclthat's what documentation and the IRC channel is for. if they're not communicating, it's not our/your problem.23:23
lkclremember that we had some potential people wanting to help: it took them *eight months* to follow the goddamned instructions23:24
lkclnot one single one of them got on here and said, "hello i am at step X of the instructions: now what do i do?"23:24
lkclone of them even managed to miss out the chroot part and destroyed their system by running the devscripts that did "apt-get remove systemd"23:25
lkclwe do not need people "helping" if they are in fact just plain stupid and cannot communicate. they will be a nightmare drain on our extreme-limited resources23:26
lkclfocus on *now*, please.23:26
lkclnot "what problems some random as-yet-non-existent *future* and *potential* developer *might* run into if they didn't ask for help and/or didn't follow the build instructions"23:27
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