| *** ibot is now known as Guest497 | 06:09 | |
| *** rsc_ is now known as rsc | 08:36 | |
| lkcl | hilarious :) | 09:33 |
|---|---|---|
| ghostmansd | Have we ever considered alternatives to IRC? I mean, lack of good clients on Android, custom bridges to support logs, writing filters for very important messages like "user x left the room"... | 09:46 |
| ghostmansd | Not that I know or suggest an alternative, I'm just curious | 09:46 |
| programmerjake | I'm using Matrix (through the bridge provided by libera) | 10:12 |
| programmerjake | in other news: Rust is the most loved programming language in stack overflow's annual survey for 6 years straight: | 10:13 |
| programmerjake | https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2021#technology-most-loved-dreaded-and-wanted | 10:13 |
| lkcl | ghostmansd: yes, and the answer's no. anything that's web-based i have to be the one to set it up on self-hosting infrastructure, first doing a full security review and audit of the source code and a resource utilisation review, which takes up my money and my time. | 12:02 |
| lkcl | which was the primary reason we are using such spartan and simple bug / project management (gitlab was so bad it actually took a 0.6 load average *at idle* on the VM) | 12:05 |
| ghostmansd | I personally couldn't find a single reason to love Rust, to be honest. The concept is nice, but I wouldn't go as far as telling I love it. That said, seeing C in "dreaded" area is somewhat surprising. | 12:08 |
| lkcl | there's a lack of training and mindset which is becoming quite alarming. | 12:12 |
| lkcl | some people actually genuinely believe that c is a type of assembler syntax. | 12:12 |
| lkcl | i.e. that c is *only* permitted to be compiled directly, concept-for-concept, to assembler. and that, therefore, c itself, is limited and restricted in its syntax to those concepts that map directly to assembler. | 12:13 |
| lkcl | given that it's the fundamental basis of cpython, u-boot, linux kernel, libc6, apache web server, samba, the perl interpreter, bash, busybox, and hundreds if not thousands of libraries and programs that are mission-critical to the internet and to computing, it's even more alarming the lack of respect for c | 12:16 |
| ghostmansd | I see no problems in C, frankly speaking. It simply lacks some syntax sugar, for sure, but it has never been a problem to me. OOP is even nicer in C. Should I think too often about memory ownership? Yes, for sure, it's low-level enough, so it's inevitable. But, if you're a good programmer, you always think of ownership and relationship between ADTs, and having compiler doing it instead is helpful, but not necessarily needed with the correct mindset. | 12:33 |
| ghostmansd | Errors in C? Well, they can happen anywhere. C, of course, does allow more places where things can go wrong. At the same time, it does indeed allow to do more things which can hardly be done in higher-level languages. | 12:34 |
| ghostmansd | I wish I could find language better than C, at the same time. | 12:34 |
| ghostmansd | Lack of build system, inventing the wheels here and there... a lot can be improved. | 12:35 |
| ghostmansd | I looked at Rust, Go, both have nice ideas (not necessarily new, though). | 12:36 |
| ghostmansd | But still I don't consider they can fill the same area. The good is the enemy of the best, and C suits my needs reasonably well. | 12:38 |
| ghostmansd | (and quite often even more than that) | 12:39 |
| lkcl | one area that is a nuisance is when trying to do OO inheritance techniques, using table-pointers, as is done in proper libraries and in cpython and apache2. the first entry in the struct / table is the "type of the object" and you have to *manually* type-cast and follow some very strict programming practices. | 12:56 |
| lkcl | my feeling is that, putting it bluntly, people are not properly trained to do that kind of thing. | 12:57 |
| lkcl | c++ doesn't even properly support dynamic OO of the type that's useful in web browser DOM implementations unless you do it explicitly yourself, or you compile with RTTI (runtime type information) | 12:58 |
| lkcl | the Hell that webkit goes through to cope without RTTI (which is quite expensive) is quite tortuous. | 12:59 |
| lkcl | you have to get to high-level interpreted programming languages and Objective-C/M/J and DCOM, to get those kinds of features "automatically" | 13:00 |
| ghostmansd | Well, you actually can have pointers to "methods" instead of having some type tag. And methods will do the work themselves. | 13:23 |
| ghostmansd | You don't even need to store it as the first, via some tricks like container_of and similar things. | 13:24 |
| ghostmansd | This is quite close to how it's done in C++, except that you do it manually and don't have static type checks... but, with a proper amount of time dedicated, this is really flexible. And, as long as you literally spend a lot of time working on it, you _really_ want to think of the architecture as much as you can. | 13:26 |
| ghostmansd | And in the end, I saw that sometimes these hand-made systems work better and are more flexible than quick equivalents in C++, where you don't have to think that much. | 13:27 |
| ghostmansd | (in C++ you have to think much of other things, like how to demonstrate others that you really can do anything with templates) | 13:27 |
| ghostmansd | (or that your code is so smart that you have smart pointer to container of smart pointers) | 13:28 |
| richardwilbur[m] | <programmerjake> "https://xkcd.com/2497/" <- Love the logic gates! | 17:56 |
| lkcl | ghostmansd: yes, Jean-Paul (LIP6) has created hand-made c-python bindings which are much better suited to high performance. | 18:35 |
| lkcl | and, he understands them, where SWIG or Boost you just... don't. | 18:35 |
| programmerjake | do note that the specific way stack overflow's survey defines loving a language is the proportion of those who want to keep using that language vs. those who are currently using that language. they don't do something like ask "how much do you love X", since those are waay harder to interpret | 19:00 |
| richardwilbur[m] | So my older daughter is interested in a laptop of her own to take to high school during the day and be able to bring home and work on assignments at night. I checked on the pine64.org site and the Pinebook didn’t seem to be available and the Pinebook Pro is sold out. I inquired via E-mail and they added me to the standby list with expectations of an announcement in Q4. She was considering a Chromebook because she has enough | 22:00 |
| richardwilbur[m] | money saved up to buy it herself. | 22:00 |
| richardwilbur[m] | I was suggesting one of the Pinebooks as it | 22:00 |
| programmerjake | I've heard good things about the framework laptops https://frame.work/ if you get the DIY one it starts at around $750. | 22:05 |
| programmerjake | review on linus tech tips: https://youtu.be/0rkTgPt3M4k | 22:07 |
| programmerjake | when I bought my laptop several years ago, I got a used 3rd-gen intel one for $120 or so, then upgraded the ram to 16GB. it's good enough if you don't particularly care about performance and want something really cheap | 22:10 |
| programmerjake | i got the hp probook 6470b | 22:12 |
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