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| lkcl | sadoon: added | 08:12 |
|---|---|---|
| lkcl | for the make.conf you can just commit it to the wiki then use "[[!inline somethingsomethingfilename raw=yes]]" there are a huge number of examples | 08:15 |
| lkcl | if it's a *small* file do it inline | 08:15 |
| lkcl | sadoon, bear in mind that the whole purpose is to create a "reproducible build from source". any "convenience and shortcuts by giving out binaries" is (a) a massive legal liability that is completely unacceptable and (b) means that if there is a problem and you are not around then information is lost and we waste NLnet money trying to reproduce and re-discover what you did | 08:22 |
| lkcl | also could someone please cut/paste the conversation with michiel into the nlnet-ongoing EUR 100,000 bugtracker task | 08:23 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <lkcl> cesar[m]1, programmerjake toshywoshy ^ | 08:23 |
| lkcl | markos_, ghostmansd[m] ^ | 08:24 |
| lkcl | i cc'd you all | 08:24 |
| lkcl | sadoon, who wrote the wording that you used surrounding the devscripts? | 08:29 |
| lkcl | "they may look confusing" i have removed | 08:29 |
| lkcl | and i have added a hard warning "it is your legal responsibility" | 08:29 |
| lkcl | if we have anything that stupid on the wiki - failing to warn people of the consequences - the entire project and all members are exposed to massive legal liability | 08:30 |
| lkcl | "i ran the scripts they deleted my system i'm suing you for damages because you failed to warn me" | 08:30 |
| markos_ | lkcl, that does not stand actually | 08:31 |
| markos_ | people are expected to check what they run on their systems, with or without warnings | 08:33 |
| markos_ | that especially holds for things like scripts | 08:34 |
| markos_ | in the unlikely scenario that someone would like to hold libresoc accountable for having their files deleted for following the scripts | 08:34 |
| markos_ | in any case, that's text for a distribution license, ie BSD, MIT, GPL, etc, not a simple warning, as long as there is a generic license text for the whole repository, we're good, and I believe there is one | 08:35 |
| lkcl | markos_, i am not taking the risk | 08:41 |
| markos_ | also, liability damages are possible only if there is an actual contract between the parties, not for stuff that is available on the internet freely and the user *chooses* to run the software by their choice | 08:41 |
| lkcl | there have actually been people who have destroyed their host system by failing to follow the instructions | 08:41 |
| lkcl | there were only 7 commands that they needed to run and they failed to run step (2) (creating and entering the chroot) | 08:42 |
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| lkcl | now, that said - i am interested to hear how other projects handle this - if there is a "standard way" | 08:49 |
| lkcl | (that sets legal precedent). | 08:49 |
| lkcl | markos_, in different jurisdictions unfortunately that's not 100% true. the U.S. has many legal precedents surrounding the right of e.g. burglars to sue for damages after injuring themselves during a theft | 08:51 |
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| markos_ | this is a different use case :) | 08:53 |
| markos_ | I'm not saying to not put a wording, I'm just saying that the lack of a warning does not constitute a risk of massive legal liabilities against the members of the project :) | 09:11 |
| markos_ | s/wording/warning/ | 09:11 |
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| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> <openpowerbot> "[irc] <lkcl> sadoon: added" <- Thanks! | 11:17 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> <openpowerbot> "[irc] <lkcl> for the make.conf..." <- Oh that's cool will edit it to use that | 11:17 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> <openpowerbot> "[irc] <lkcl> sadoon, bear in..." <- Unfortunately with Gentoo it's inescapable because of how Gentoo works | 11:18 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> <openpowerbot> "[irc] <lkcl> sadoon, who wrote..." <- It's copy-pasted from the microwatt guide but I might remove it anyway or rewrite it | 11:19 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> <sadoon[m]1> "Unfortunately with Gentoo it's..." <- Actually completely disregard what I said, I might be able to fix that issue. Give me some time | 11:29 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> Ok here goes: to make it completely reproducible, we can use a Gentoo stage3 tarball from a certain date and never change it, rebuild everything in it using our make.conf, and voila | 11:33 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> A stage3 is still binary, but not provided by us, just like a debian iso for example | 11:33 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> But that's Gentoo's official stage3 | 11:33 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> If you use the same stage3 with the same steps you are guaranteed to have the same code | 11:34 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> This simplifies the process while also guaranteeing reproducibility and meaning that we don't have to publish any binaries | 11:35 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> 1- download the stage3 2- add our make.conf 3- rebuild with a single line command | 11:36 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> If at any point in time we need software not available in the stage3, we pin a specific version of it | 11:38 |
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| markos_ | sadoon, if using a gentoo stage3 tarball, might be good to mirror it as well, along with the url and checksums, just in case... | 12:45 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> Yeah | 12:45 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> They will take it off their mirrors at some point so good idea | 12:46 |
| markos_ | with very old releases, debian puts them in the archive, and urls change | 12:46 |
| markos_ | you can still find images for eg. potato but they're not in the original urls | 12:46 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> For debian that would be massive, or we could just mirror the chroot-necessary part of the repo only | 12:46 |
| markos_ | no point in doing that for debian, but at some point we will need a package repo anyway | 12:47 |
| markos_ | until it gets merged properly in debian at least | 12:47 |
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| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> That's a totally different thing, sffs repo and eventually svp64 is needed | 13:03 |
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| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> Alright almost done with debian scripts | 13:04 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> They'll be in a separate branch on dev-env-scripts and I put a warning that they are WIP | 13:04 |
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| markos_ | btw, octavius toshywoshy, starting linux in verilator doesn't use more than 1GB of ram (actually much less), but I see about 40GB cached | 13:17 |
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| markos_ | btw didn't get to the prompt | 13:17 |
| markos_ | reached here: | 13:18 |
| markos_ | [ 2.545271] printk: console [ttyS0] disabled | 13:18 |
| markos_ | START_BIT error 434 306 | 13:18 |
| markos_ | [ 2.570906] serial8250.0: ttyS0 at MMIO 0xc0002000 (irq = 16, base_baud = 3125000) is a 16550A | 13:18 |
| markos_ | [ 0.000000] printk: bootconsole [udbg0] enabled | 13:18 |
| markos_ | and then it seemed to restart | 13:18 |
| markos_ | after ~1h | 13:18 |
| markos_ | is this expected/normal? | 13:19 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> You're getting close | 13:20 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> Restart you mean like the whole boot process? | 13:20 |
| markos_ | yes | 13:22 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> No that's not normal :( | 13:23 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> I pushed the debian scripts to new branch bug999, please guys don't run any of it just yet | 13:24 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> It's almost complete but I need to be back home to add the list of packages to build | 13:25 |
| markos_ | 41.71% microwatt-verilator [.] VlMTaskVertex::waitUntilUpstreamDone | 13:25 |
| markos_ | 32.97% microwatt-verilator [.] VlWorkerThread::dequeWork | 13:25 |
| markos_ | 8.72% microwatt-verilator [.] VlMTaskVertex::signalUpstreamDone | 13:25 |
| markos_ | that's why it takes so long | 13:25 |
| octavius | Not sure why it restarted, worked for sadoon as well | 13:33 |
| octavius | Also, I tried with Libre-SOC core, but interestingly enough it seems to reset after the message "Booting from BRAM at 0x600000", I probably didn't change an address or something like that | 13:34 |
| markos_ | the above was profiling microwatt-verilator with perf top -p, this basically means that basically 80% of the time of execution is spent on spinlocks | 13:42 |
| markos_ | even if running on single threaded, this is ridiculous, that's why it's so slow | 13:42 |
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| markos_ | so I propose 2 things: 1. verilator 5 is out for a while, maybe it's fixed there, 2. if not, then I suggest we fix this, for a few years I did exactly that, I optimized C software on NUMA systems with hundreds of cores and TB of RAM to scale well, we had our own spinlocks/mutex library and we optimized the hell out of everything, this is exactly such a usecase | 13:45 |
| markos_ | doesn't even require assembly, just a better use of atomics | 13:47 |
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| markos_ | wow, just had a look and realized that for some packages we are using ancient versions, we need to move from buster to bookworm | 14:50 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> lkcl: so remember yesterday when I said the ULX hasn't shipped yet? | 14:51 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> It just did :D | 14:51 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> Looks like they finally got some back in stock | 14:51 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> As if they knew that I really need it now | 14:52 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> This is both the 12K and 85K models in one shipment, awesome!! | 14:53 |
| markos_ | sadoon, are these FPGA boards? | 15:00 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> YES :D | 15:02 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> Even the board itself is libre | 15:02 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> https://radiona.org/ulx3s/ | 15:03 |
| markos_ | nice | 15:04 |
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| lkcl | > This simplifies the process while also guaranteeing reproducibility | 15:37 |
| lkcl | perfect, sadoon | 15:37 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> :) | 15:39 |
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| openpowerbot | [irc] <cesar[m]1> The ECPIX-5 also seems to be back in stock: https://shop.lambdaconcept.com/home/46-2-ecpix-5.html#/2-ecpix_5_fpga-ecpix_5_85f | 16:19 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> Seems like the production bottleneck was with the FPGA itself | 16:37 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> Both use the same chip | 16:37 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> Same LUTs also | 16:37 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <programmerjake> I found a patch that fixes float128 in glibc for microwatt: https://github.com/shenki/buildroot/blob/43ba432a97dea532ae56a002b2852e343248fb61/package/glibc/0001-Hack-out-float128-support.patch | 16:38 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <programmerjake> if you use that in debian/gentoo it will likely work better than trying to set long double to 64-bit | 16:39 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> Awesome!! | 16:40 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> Thanks | 16:41 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <programmerjake> full commit https://github.com/shenki/buildroot/commit/15357de274f577ec2a50a7bd9f50ffa3b3037645#diff-edfab837c027bae952c3d0ef4b3e71e0018a886459610de28b899982f78644f7 | 16:42 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <programmerjake> all the commits for supporting microwatt https://github.com/shenki/buildroot/compare/arch-powerpc...shenki:buildroot:microwatt | 16:50 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> Perfect, these should be compatible with pretty much any version we need | 16:54 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> (just from a quick peek) | 16:54 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <programmerjake> yay! | 16:54 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> I'm on a train but luckily my laptop already has the full source of glibc debian version, I'll make it a git repo and push it to libre-soc as well with the patches | 16:55 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> So I might lose internet but I'm working on it, thanks for sending this again! | 16:56 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <programmerjake> k, have a safe trip! | 16:56 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> thanks | 16:57 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> :) | 16:57 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <programmerjake> found the patches by reading microwatt's readme where it says they have a patched buildroot for microwatt...seems an obvious place to look in retrospecr | 16:57 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <programmerjake> retrospect* | 16:57 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> With this, octavius recent work on simulation, and my FPGA shipping just in time, we might be ready to run Linux very soon I hope | 16:58 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <programmerjake> yay! | 16:59 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> I did notice microwatt is missing some stuff in the cflags that we did add yet their system works just fine | 17:28 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> They don't have -mno-htm -mno-crypto in glibc for example | 17:29 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <programmerjake> well, iirc crypto requires vmx/altivec...so -mno-altivec should disable it, we're passing the flag to be safe i guess | 17:30 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> ah | 17:30 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> and htm? | 17:30 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <programmerjake> htm is deprecated, so glibc probably doesn't use it | 17:30 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> Interesting | 17:31 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> I don't have permission to create a new repo, can someone create a glibc repo so I can push it? I applied the patches but I can't test them just yet so keep that in mind | 17:37 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> Hmm actually I could test this stuff on my POWER8 server even so hehehe | 17:38 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <programmerjake> @lkcl | 17:38 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> Time to put my money where my mouth is and test my scripts on my own server hheheheeh | 17:43 |
| octavius | sadoon, making some pretty swift progress, good work! | 17:54 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> Thanks :D | 17:54 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> I'm logged into trusty old Tyan to rebuild glibc and see how things go, hope I don't lose internet but I'm using tmux so it doesn't completely fail if I disconnect | 17:56 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <programmerjake> if you use mosh it starts working again whenever you reconnect | 18:05 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <programmerjake> though you do lose your scrollback buffer | 18:05 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> tmux also works well that way | 18:07 |
| markos_ | tmux has the benefit of splitting the terminal in multiple windows | 18:08 |
| markos_ | so if you have elaborate sessions with monitoring, compilation, testing, etc, tmux is indispensable | 18:09 |
| octavius | For some reason having bash in chroot (in tmux) made my arrow keys stop working (they became control chars instead) | 19:10 |
| markos_ | wrong terminal not passed correctly from schroot to tmux, just upgrade tmux | 19:17 |
| markos_ | I had that exactly, was fixed with an upgrade | 19:17 |
| octavius | using tmux in a debian 10 chroot | 19:52 |
| octavius | I guess I'd need to manually upgrade tmux | 19:53 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> octavius I don't think you need to upgrade | 19:53 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> Just need a good tmux.conf | 19:53 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> I'll send you mine if you want | 19:53 |
| octavius | Sure, that'd be nice! | 20:00 |
| octavius | Making configs is an art in itself | 20:00 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> Alright :) | 20:15 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> Please read it thoroughly before applying though | 20:15 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> https://albader.co/tmux.conf | 20:16 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> It's based on someone else's but I changed too many things, can't remember who exactly | 20:17 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> The specific line is the xterm-256colors I think that might fix your problem | 20:18 |
| lkcl | ULX3S on the way? hooray! and the reason i say "hooray" is because it has SDRAM. no bullshit DDR3 training | 20:35 |
| lkcl | i use minicom | 20:35 |
| lkcl | and the only thing you need to make sure of is *not* to use rts or cts. which is the default. | 20:36 |
| lkcl | out-of-the-box minicom "just works" | 20:36 |
| lkcl | sadoon i'll make a git repo "libc6"... done | 20:38 |
| lkcl | it's empty | 20:38 |
| lkcl | done | 20:39 |
| lkcl | programmerjake: doh, well spotted | 20:40 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> Debian uses glibc so I'd prefer that but either works | 20:40 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> As a name | 20:40 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> Yes the RAM is a big bonus but it's only 32MB, you think it'll be enough? | 20:40 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> (Desolder and solder on 128MB for fun and profit) | 20:42 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <lkcl> sadoon[m]1, programmerjake, https://git.libre-soc.org/?p=buildroot.git;a=summary | 20:44 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <lkcl> ok 1 sec... | 20:44 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <lkcl> done | 20:45 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <lkcl> https://git.libre-soc.org/?p=glibc.git;a=summary | 20:45 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> Awesome, might be a little busy tonight but I'll upload as soon as I can | 20:46 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <lkcl> no, nobody is authorised to create arbitrary untrusted repositories, i make sure to explain to people that repositories are never to contain binaries or other auto-generatable output... and *then* create the repository for them | 20:47 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <lkcl> plus there's only a 20GB allocation of the sponsored hosting from mythic-beasts, and 12GB of it is already used | 20:48 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> I think glibc is about 20MB or something compressed which is actually very shocking | 21:29 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> (Also I think I'm missing context on the untrusted repos thing, is the bridge acting up again?) | 21:30 |
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