Friday, 2023-09-01

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* lkcl waves to charlie5 and Lucretia-backup - welcome to an interesting ambitious project09:05
lkclghostmansd[m], yes that's pretty rapid progress, a good sign09:05
lkclindeed don't do anything other than the 32-bit ops. (one of the reasons i'm clamping down on PO1 is precisely to keep the decode simpler than its massive complexity-by-necessity already has to be)09:06
ghostmansd[m]Yeah I kinda impressed how far I reached in a couple of days. Visitors made it real.09:06
ghostmansd[m]This justifies the efforts we made on that task. :-)09:07
ghostmansd[m]I still find them tricky, though, especially whenever visiting different objects needs to "communicate" (e.g. track some stuff from children at parent level hook).09:08
lkclyes that's when you either do 2-pass or use a "stack" or basically keep state inside the parent.09:09
lkclbut this is "perfectly normal" for SAX visitors in python09:10
lkcli've seen the technique be used... literally dozens of times in python-based SAX code over 20+ years09:10
lkcland it is why the "walker" is strictly-defined in its behaviour09:11
lkclso that it is absolutely guaranteed to follow a certain path, such that you *can* drop stuff into the parent and know precisely and exactly with 100% confidence that that "stuff" can be picked up when the tree-walk exits a certain level09:11
lkcllib2to3 and lib3to2 ran with that concept and went... massively overboard, abstracting out "the ability to express *general pattern-matching* of node-to-node relationships and what to do on encountering them"09:13
lkclwhich is extremely powerful but utterly mind-melting09:13
lkcland the last thing we need right now - but it does help explain why e.g. XSLT was created, because the "parent-child-and-other" relationships are useful to be able to abstract/express/control-what-gets-done09:14
lkclas long as you don't imagine that it is your responsibility to create "re-entrant" (or multi-threaded) node-walking, treating the walker-api as a "single process, one-shot" deal, the practice of dropping in temporary variables into the visitor-instance and picking them up by other walker-functions (covering exit-back-to-parent) *is* absolutely standard practice.09:17
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* Lucretia-backup waves at lkcl09:29
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lkclnever had a backup wave at me before. having a bit of an amusingly-existential moment...09:30
lkcloh hi Lucretia :)09:30
Lucretialkcl: which hw can run this cpu/gpu/soc thing?09:30
Lucretiayeah, it's a pain having to leave to change the nick back, so re-creating is easier.09:31
lkcli use hexchat, it "copes" with that.. partly09:39
lkclFPGAs and simulations only at the moment09:39
lkclDigilent Arty-A7-100t has the longest legs at the moment but will run out of steam once we get into the "big" FPU end.09:40
Lucretiakonversation won't change nick because of reistered channels09:40
lkclreconfiguring down to a 32-bit core will also help09:40
lkclwhat we're doing is *real* basic.09:42
Lucretiadoesn't seem basic to me, but I'm sw not hw, yet09:43
lkclredefining an already-powerful ISA to become so flexible and compact that it's hard for most computer science people to grasp09:43
lkcli started out in sw, but also did electronics as a kid09:43
Lucretia"that it's hard for most computer science people to grasp" sounds like you're making it less basic and really complex09:44
lkcl74 series logic ICs, diodes and transistors, made my own FM transmitters from "the anarchist's handbook" :)09:44
LucretiaI intend to do nand to tetris09:44
Lucretiaand have a z80 in front of me :D09:44
lkclactually the total opposite - which is why it's stumping people09:44
lkclaaawesooome :)09:44
lkcli stamped down hard on the SIMD bullshit, leaving a simple scalar ISA, then effectively made it 2-dimensional via an *abstracted* (orthogonal) RISC-based "looping" prefix09:45
lkcllike CPIR and LDIR09:45
lkclbut on steroids :)09:45
Lucretiatbh, simd is really a requirement for a good isa09:46
lkclat the back-end yes.09:46
Lucretiaso much uses it09:46
lkclat the front-end, no09:46
* Lucretia shrugs09:46
lkclit turns out that underneath, Vector ISA implementations in hardware are *almost identical* to SIMD ISA implementations in hardware09:47
LucretiaI don't know what you mean with front/back end in this context09:47
lkclin software terms:09:47
lkclISA === "the API"09:47
lkclHW === "the details of the implementation *behind* the API"... aka "a dynamic library"09:48
lkcltake strncpy as an example: the "header file" equals the front-end09:48
lkclthe "c file" equals the back-end09:48
* lkcl need breakfast, afk for a bit09:49
charlie5thanks lkcl :) ... i also am s/w but eager to learn h/w09:52
* openpowerbot [irc] <sadoon[m]1> gets popcorn ready09:52
* Lucretia got pointed here by someone on an amiga discord09:53
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Lucretiacharlie5: you going to do nand2tetris too?10:31
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charlie5Lucretia: not actually sure what that is10:50
Lucretiatis a course10:50
Lucretiathey've got that with youtube vids or a coursera course, just do the yt stuff. I've not exactly started yet10:52
charlie5i'll take a look10:52
Lucretiathere's a vid on the first page10:52
Lucretiai'm thinking about doing that and learning vhdl at the same time11:02
Lucretiaand doing the vhdl at the same time11:02
Lucretiaone of the possible tasks at the end is to convert it all to vhdl, so may as well do it from the start11:02
openpowerbot[irc] <sadoon[m]1> If you're coming from s/w you'll hate VHDL11:04
Lucretiawell, I'm coming from Ada, so I seriously doubt it11:05
openpowerbot[irc] <sadoon[m]1> Ah!11:05
openpowerbot[irc] <sadoon[m]1> Awesome11:05
LucretiaI hate c likes and not a fan of python either11:05
openpowerbot[irc] <sadoon[m]1> We were taught VHDL in uni, but I prefer (System)Verilog and nMigen is also much much better11:06
LucretiaI won't like verilog11:06
openpowerbot[irc] <sadoon[m]1> Yeah I assume11:06
Lucretiaand what I've read about being able to compile erroneous stuff in it, I'd be right too.11:07
octaviusHaving a hardware engineering, VHDL/verilog are much closer to home (as powerful as nMigen is)11:07
Lucretiano idea what you're trying to say11:07
openpowerbot[irc] <sadoon[m]1> Yep, I'm always most comfortable with SystemVerilog11:08
openpowerbot[irc] <sadoon[m]1> I think degree*11:08
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Lucretiawe did digital at uni in first year, but never on real hw, just the theory11:08
Lucretiathey failed in so many things11:08
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octaviusWhat I meant, is that software engineering techniques applied to hardware design require a lot of computer science knowledge (data structures, algorithms, mathematics etc.); I find this pretty difficult11:10
octaviusVHDL and verilog tend to be simpler (closer to logic gates)11:11
octaviuswhereas if you look at some of our nMigen Libre-SOC source, you'll see stuff that goes way beyond that11:11
openpowerbot[irc] <sadoon[m]1> Yeah in software you just abstract away all the electronics and assume that things work the way they're intended but when designing hardware in VHDL and Verilog you have to mind so many things11:12
LucretiaI have a number of hw projects I want to play with, including an a1200 mb to get working11:12
openpowerbot[irc] <sadoon[m]1> I'm trying to remember the scientific definition of an electron being stuck in an unstable state between 0 and 1 in a transistor, it's on the tip of my tongue heh11:13
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lkclverilog is... a 1980s concept, of the era of FORTRAN, BASIC and PASCAL.11:30
Lucretiain c style11:30
lkclvhdl is *directly* out of ADA.  as in: it *is* ADA.11:30
Lucretiaincluding all the errors of c11:31
* Lucretia is aware of where vhdl came from...from peoples in #ada11:31
lkclthat's a... a... what's-the-word...11:31
lkclinsult to c :)11:31
Lucretiac deserves to be insulted11:32
lkclno it really doesn't. it's extremely powerful and misunderstood by modern programmers11:32
* Lucretia has worked in c and c++11:32
lkclwhen programmers don't actually single-step into the god-awful c++ templates they create, *that's* when it goes to hell in a handbasket, very quickly11:33
Lucretiaahh the wasted billions $£ trying to fix c/c++ code11:33
lkcland yet c produces the fastest binaries, so people stick with it11:34
lkclpython when used incorrectly - particularly without the rigourous safety net of unit tests - also goes very very badly, very very quickly11:35
openpowerbot[irc] <sadoon[m]1> It's like a manual transmission car11:35
openpowerbot[irc] <sadoon[m]1> You can money shift and break it and it costs a lot to fix, or you can make it the most efficient machine possible11:35
lkclas a 23-year-long python developer it's rather unfortunate that i've had to stamp on quite a few fingers over the past few years, when teaching people here some long-term maintenance rigour11:36
lkcland i haven't entirely succeeded, as it's that big and that complex a project11:37
Lucretiaif it's not built into the the language, there's going to be errors11:37
lkcl... which are caught by unit tests, and using appropriate linting tools, and setting proper review procedures11:37
lkcland the advantage is that when you *don't* need the bullshit-of-the-language getting in your way, you can move extremely quickly11:38
* lkcl (for context: i've been programming continously since 1977)11:39
lkclwe've been over these kinds of things - discussion and selection of languages - maaaany times already in the past 5 years :)11:40
lkcland at the low-level we're working at, which is bare-metal unit tests (1 to 10 lines of assembler), bootloaders and fundamental firmware, we have no choice but to work in assembler and c11:41
lkclyes ZephyrOS works11:41
lkcland we expect linux (the microwatt-5.7 kernel by joel shenki) to run as well11:42
lkcli ran out of time to run it under the microwatt_verilator branch (the one that had ZephyrOS confirmed as running successfully, including running an embedded webserver as part of KestrelBMC)11:43
lkclthe level of detail and sheer comprehensiveness involved in this project is... just mental.11:43
lkclwhich also has a nice side-effect that there's room - a niche - for pretty much anyone to help11:44
lkclsadoon: i've just uploaded the debian-sffs.tar.xz file to the ftp site11:44
openpowerbot[irc] <sadoon[m]1> Awesome11:44
openpowerbot[irc] <sadoon[m]1> Keep in mind I do plan to improve things there (Debian and Gentoo)11:45
openpowerbot[irc] <sadoon[m]1> So this image isn't final11:45
lkclnot a problem, we'll just incrementally update it11:45
openpowerbot[irc] <sadoon[m]1> Yep11:46
lkclbut do keep it "basic" - don't include more than necessary if some scripts (run inside or even outside the chroot) can drop stuff into it from *other* sources11:46
charlie5have you guys looked into ada much ?11:47
openpowerbot[irc] <sadoon[m]1> openpowerbot: Yeah of course11:47
lkcli'm thinking in terms of say using the trick that markos suggested of "dpkg --root=/blahblah" to unpack apt (and udev) from standard debian-12-ppc64le11:47
lkclrather than *us* providing what can already be downloaded from debian (and is gpg-signed)11:48
lkclcharlie5, i remember being impressed by it when i learned of it back at imperial (1989 ish?)11:48
openpowerbot[irc] <sadoon[m]1> Unfortunately apt again needs systemd which does not want to build with our CFLAGS11:48
lkclbut we were steered away from "commercial" programming languages in case we got hired and didn't finish our degree :)11:49
openpowerbot[irc] <sadoon[m]1> So we need devuan's sources for that specifically11:49
openpowerbot[irc] <sadoon[m]1> (Needs udev)*11:49
lkclsadoon: no please don't - just unpack the standard debian apt and udev using a script and leave it at that.11:49
lkclor, just leave it.11:49
lkclthe task is finished.11:49
openpowerbot[irc] <sadoon[m]1> It might have VSX instructions11:50
lkclyou've easily justified the funds11:50
lkcldon't care. not our problem.11:50
openpowerbot[irc] <sadoon[m]1> In that case then sure11:50
charlie5lkcl: ada is my main language ... it's performance is on par with c ... it also has many built in safety features ... the ada standard was 'recently' updated (in 2022)11:50
* charlie5 hops off his soapbox :)11:51
lkclwe're defining "success" as "what you managed to achieve"11:51
lkclyes... ohhh i remember. it was quoted to us as an example of how... eek trying to remember... you could write specifications and formal proofs that checked the data types11:51
openpowerbot[irc] <sadoon[m]1> Well11:52
lkcli'm specifically thinking of in, out, and in/out11:52
lkcldang that was a long time ago11:52
lkcli also have vague recollections of getting a "D" in that particular course :)11:52
openpowerbot[irc] <sadoon[m]1> I made reservation for a weekend vacation type of getaway but *only* if I finish my tasks11:52
openpowerbot[irc] <sadoon[m]1> And now I'm there11:52
openpowerbot[irc] <sadoon[m]1> So :)11:52
Lucretiaand you missed the point entirely,. If it's in the language, you don't need linting tools11:52
lkclyou've finished the task :)11:53
openpowerbot[irc] <sadoon[m]1> Which is why I'm on vacation :D11:53
lkcli didn't, Lucretia: sorry for not acknowledging (lack of empathy on my part)11:53
openpowerbot[irc] <sadoon[m]1> My cue to go enjoy my time, ttyl! :D11:53
lkcli moved beyond that, skipping ahead11:53
lkclenjoy, sadoon11:53
openpowerbot[irc] <sadoon[m]1> Thanks11:54
lkcli've seen rust and also bluespec, how they operate11:54
lkcl(bluespec is written in Haskell)11:54
charlie5lkcl: there is also SPARK (a subset of ada) ... programs written in SPARK can be formally proven correct ... i haven't used spark tho11:55
lkclthanks to Haskell's links to Formal Correctness Proofs, bluespec have been able to provide a *100%* guarantee - formally - that any syntactically-correct compiled bsv program *will* be synthesizeable in an ASIC11:55
lkclSPARK formal proofs: niiiice11:56
lkclLucretia, i worked with the Shakti Team at IIT Madras for around 4 months, helping them to write a pinmux / Interface-Auto-Generator, in bluespec11:56
lkclthey had an entire new team that had literally never done an ASIC before, and thanks to bluespec (and its strictness similar to rust)11:57
lkclthey were able in 18 months to develop and have taped-out a *100% successful* first chip.11:57
lkclyou should have heard the roar in the room when they got a response back from the on-board UART, running its first program11:58
lkclthat kind of success is unheard-of in the ASIC industry, and it was all down to their strategic choice to use bluespec.11:58
lkclthe engineers *couldn't* make mistakes11:58
lkclwhen working with their lead engineer, it became embarrassing that i had to ask him *twice a day* for his time of *over an hour* each time11:59
lkclas we hunted systematically through the manual to overcome "strictness" of the language which would normally have taken a few minutes to resolve in a non-strict-typed HDL12:00
lkclthe amount of time taken up was so huge, and such a distraction from his other tasks, that in the end i had to sit there often for a day - my visa running out - to give him a chance to deal with the other engineers12:01
Lucretiaand would've taken longer and been more expensive to find the errors in a "non-strict-typed HDL" this has been proven time and time again12:01
lkclindeed, i've heard similar anecdotes.12:03
lkclwe chose nmigen as a level of indirection, and for pragmatic reasons. it generates guaranteed-synthesiseable HDL for a start12:03
lkcland allows the powerful OO multiple-inheritance concepts of python to be applied to HDL12:04
lkclunlike say... what the hell is it...12:04
* lkcl trying to remember...12:04
lkclchisel3!  which is SCALA12:05
lkclSCALA is... way below 1/20th on the TIOBE index, whereas python is #1? known by 1/3 of the world's programmers?12:05
lkcland we've spent some considerable time (and NLnet's funds) linking it to symbiyosys (including funding integration of smtlib's FP proof engine)12:06
lkclwhich allows us to do the Formal Correctness Proofs that find the design errors12:06
lkcl*and* we can link directly into python's unit test infrastructure12:07
lkcl*and* if we really wanted to we could write a plugin for nmigen that *added strict typing*12:07
lkclleaving us the flexibility and the option to pick-and-choose the best of all worlds... when needed.12:07
lkclit's... there's a *lot* of strategic thought gone into this project12:08
lkcl(the plugin system is part of the abstraction layer that's 95% of the way there for nmigen)12:09
lkcllong story :)12:09
* lkcl making lunch...12:36
lkclcharlie5, they didn't _happen_ to add object-orientated multiple-inheritance to ada22 did they?12:36
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charlie5lkcl: they added MI using interface types back in ada201212:42
charlie5i was always a bit disappointed in ada initial single inheritance ... MI with the interface types is quite nice tho12:43
Lucretiacharlie5: MI a la c++ style isn't good, that's why java went with interfaces and why ada nicked em12:45
charlie5Lucretia: yep, i know ... the evil diamond problem :)12:47
Lucretiaeasy to crash too12:47
charlie5ada took the safe route of not just throwing in MI and waited for a better solution (ie the interface types)12:47
charlie5i'll have to check out vhdl12:54
lkclcharlie5, fantastic!12:59
lkclhmmm i think... i think ghdl is ada2008.  or... the majority of vhdl programs are written to that version (although i've seen others, they're rare occurrences)13:00
* lkcl can't remember... been too long. it might be a compile-time switch to ghdl...13:00
lkcli remember that microwatt has to have the --2008 compile-time option to ghdl13:01
LucretiaI never really understood the whole building to an exe thing until recently.13:04
Lucretiathe issue is going from ghdl to fpga13:04
Lucretiausing open tools13:05
charlie5lkcl: does 'D' grade stand for Distinction ?13:05
charlie5our grades were Fail, Pass, Credit, Distinction13:05
Lucretiano, D is 2 up from F13:05
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lkclyep 2 away from Fail :)16:39
lkclLucretia, ghdl to fpga using open tools is easy (ish) - yosys-ghdl-plugin16:40
lkclline 4916:41
lkclyou have to pick specific versions because of a 3-way conflict between a change in the yosys API and a change in the ghdl API, with the yosys-ghdl-plugin "falling between two stools"16:41
lkcli spent ooo... about... 3-4 days(?) patiently tracking down the relevant commits.16:42
lkclbut "latest" *may* now work - ymmv - the FOSS community tend in general to consider "API stability" to be rock-bottom unimportant, inter-project16:43
Lucretiacan the tools tell you how many macrocells you need?16:43
lkclit'll tell you exactly how many of each type you'll need, at a "high level"16:44
Lucretiathought mcrocells were one type, just has stuff inside it]16:44
lkclif you want timings you need to use the bitstream compiler/router16:45
lkcldon't bother with symbiflow, it's s**t. 7x slower: attempts to do "parallel threads" then contends for a global lock that slows each and every thread *down* to 1/N(threads).16:46
lkcland more16:46
lkclso use nextpnr-ecp5 if you're doing Lattice ECP5s16:46
lkclor nextpnr-xilinx if doing Artix-A7-100t (Digilent Arty-A7-100t)16:46
Lucretiano board, so wouldn't know which to get and mihgt have to wait until they stop scalping16:46
lkclthat's very reasonably-priced16:49
Lucretiamaybe for you16:49
lkclwell, if you were able to help with the project in some way we could justify sponsoring you for one16:50
lkclthanks to NLnet, what we do here is a (pre-agreed) set of tasks that happen to be FOSSHW but everyone actually gets paid for doing it16:52
Lucretiayeah, I saw16:52
lkclwhich is kinda wild given that they also own the copyright and all other rights to everything they're doing16:52
* Lucretia is not working right now du e to health16:52
lkcl(unlike for a company where you're just barely above being a modern slave)16:53
Lucretiadid you mean "we" (not me) or "they" own the rights?16:53
lkclyyeah i hear you on that one - me neither for the forseeable future - i'm acting as a... a... "question-receiver-to-ensure-the-picture/goal-stays-on-track"16:54
lkcli mean each individual that contributes16:54
Lucretiaright, what you wrote sounds like nlnet owns it16:54
lkclheck no16:54
lkclthere are a couple of caveats:16:54
lkcl1) we have asked everyone (on the Charter) to make a similar "assign-copyright-and-we'll-immediately-assign-it-back-to-you" agreement to that done by the FSF16:55
LucretiaI thought nlnet was just the money management, not source, but gatherer and then escrowing16:55
lkcl2) for the OpenPOWER Foundation there has to be an "inbound IP license" which is in effect "we promise not to sue any OPF Members if they implement this stuff"16:56
Lucretiawhat kind of speeds do you expect the cpu to run at on these fpga's?16:56
lkclwhich is again *not* "full transfer of all rights of ownership"16:56
lkclyes, they're what the EU calls a "Third Party Financial Service Provider" - another one with such a categorisation is FundingBox16:57
lkclbear in mind it's a *BIG* design - i managed 12 mhz under nextpnr-xilinx on the Arty-A7-100t16:57
lkclthat's because it's pushing the limits of the routing and scrabbling around to find shortest-paths16:58
Lucretiaooh, big numbers :)16:58
lkcli knooow :)16:58
Lucretiamy z80 is 10mhz16:58
lkcli have so much respect for the z80. have you heard of the 180, 280 and 380? i hadn't until about... 4 months ago16:59
Lucretiayeah, but they only make z80 and 180's now16:59
lkclthe 380 had virtual memory but had dropped CPIR and LDIR and friends. sigh16:59
lkclseriously seriously compact ISA. so impressive. much to learn from it.17:00
* Lucretia shrugs17:01
LucretiaI picked it cos 1) they're still made and 2) I had a speccy17:01
lkclthey had to be efficient back then: there wasn't any choice.17:01
lkclahhhh :)17:01
Lucretiaalthough, didn't do asm until amiga17:01
Lucretiaand it's 8080 compat, *spit*17:01
lkclyes i had a zx spectrum. my brother blew it up by unplugging the printer when it was powered in, shorted out the bus17:02
Lucretiayeah, always had to be careful adding and removing stuff from the expansion17:03
lkclone of the rare times i actually bought software was the Spectrum Basic to assembler compiler (30 quid!! in 1983!!!)17:04
LucretiaI knew someone who bought an assembler for the spectrum, he'd got pissed off with hand assembling17:05
Lucretiadunno what it cost him tho17:05
Lucretiabut I don't think it was cheap17:05
lkclnow you know two :)17:05
Lucretia£30 was a lot then17:05
Lucretiayou can only get a few food things for that now17:05
lkclthe shopkeeper must have thought i was mad - money for old rope :)17:06
* lkcl need to get up and walk about again, apologies17:07
lkclsitting too long. back later17:07
LucretiaI have to go for a walk soon, been putting it off all week17:07
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charlie5well, off to bed17:22
charlie5nice meeting you guys17:22
charlie5oh, just thought i'd mention that ada isn't a commercial language ... gcc has an implementation called 'gnat'17:23
Lucretiacharlie5: laters17:23
charlie5bye luke17:23
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openpowerbot[irc] <sadoon[m]1> lkcl:  watch this and have a laugh, I was reminded by another chat of this gem
openpowerbot[irc] <sadoon[m]1> I showed this to a group of "Advanced Programming For Engineering" students during their first class once when I was a lab assistant. Fun times19:15
openpowerbot[irc] <sadoon[m]1> octavius you might enjoy this one as well19:16
openpowerbot[irc] <sadoon[m]1> The "SEGFAULT" at the end just kills me xD19:17
openpowerbot[irc] <programmerjake> well, have fun with your C and a nice sprinkling of security vulns due to extensive UB at every turn just waiting for you to shoot yourself in the foot. Rust is much better in that respect19:24
openpowerbot[irc] <sadoon[m]1> Hey now it's just a fun joke :)19:26
openpowerbot[irc] <sadoon[m]1> The song actually sounds like satire pointed towards C's issues tbf19:28
openpowerbot[irc] <sadoon[m]1> Which is obvious towards the end19:29
openpowerbot[irc] <programmerjake> yeah, was thinking of looking for a Rust variant of that song, but decided it wasn't worth my time19:29
openpowerbot[irc] <sadoon[m]1> You'd be humored to know19:30
openpowerbot[irc] <sadoon[m]1> I haven't bothered with rust and go mostly because I gave up on software design altogether, I'm just made for hardware I guess19:30
openpowerbot[irc] <sadoon[m]1> I learned C when I was 12 because back then the iPhone was the big thing and Objective-C is a subset of C19:31
jna superset, rather19:32
openpowerbot[irc] <sadoon[m]1> Yes you're right, but you get my idea19:32
openpowerbot[irc] <sadoon[m]1> Fun days, a 12 year old trying to figure out void*19:32
openpowerbot[irc] <programmerjake> well, definitely do try Rust when you have some spare time, it is safer than Go because Go only fixes use-after-free and access out of bounds but not data races or no-GC19:33
openpowerbot[irc] <programmerjake> (though no-GC is performance rather than safety)19:33
openpowerbot[irc] <sadoon[m]1> I don't want to deal with software ever lmao19:33
openpowerbot[irc] <sadoon[m]1> I discovered that it's just not my thing19:33
openpowerbot[irc] <programmerjake> k19:34
openpowerbot[irc] <sadoon[m]1> I just obsess over trying to make it more efficient which makes me a better hardware guy19:34
openpowerbot[irc] <sadoon[m]1> Can't stop myself19:34
openpowerbot[irc] <sadoon[m]1> Honest19:34
openpowerbot[irc] <programmerjake> well, making it more efficient is exactly where Rust shines19:34
openpowerbot[irc] <sadoon[m]1> (Sometimes to my own detriment)19:34
openpowerbot[irc] <sadoon[m]1> Don't get me wrong I've no hard opinion with or against rust, it's just that I don't do software anymore19:35
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openpowerbot[irc] <programmerjake> Not sure if you all saw the now updated budget proposal -- it only moves the spare EUR 4000 from #1035 to #1025:
openpowerbot[irc] <programmerjake> cesar octavius ghostmansd toshywoshy markos lkcl sadoon are you ok with that?19:46
openpowerbot[irc] <sadoon[m]1> It doesn't affect my budget so if everyone else is fine I'm fine19:48
openpowerbot[irc] <programmerjake> icr who all was interested so if i forgot anyone, sorry19:48
openpowerbot[irc] <programmerjake> thx sadoon19:48
openpowerbot[irc] <sadoon[m]1> (Keep in mind I haven't read the comments, just noted the numbers of bug #s)19:49
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ghostmansd[m]programmerjake, ack20:50
ghostmansd[m]No objections from my side20:50
ghostmansd[m]Feel free to reallocate these as needed. I'm concentrating at code generation now, so I haven't yet checked binutils-related stuff. But I hope it won't cause difficulties.20:52
ghostmansd[m]Even if it does, I'd rather prefer to have more budget for more interesting tasks.20:52
ghostmansd[m]e.g. some format for svp64 insn fields, extending code generation for svp64, integrating the generated code into cavatools and binutils, etc.20:53
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openpowerbot[irc] <programmerjake> thx ghostmansd21:36
lkcl> only moves the spare EUR 4000 from #1035 to #102521:54
lkcli said NO jacob.21:54
lkclyou've completely underestimated (and left out) the amount of work involved in integrating new register files (FPR and FPSCR) into TestIssuer and the Core21:56
lkclwhich can be classified as "working on the InOrder Core" *WITHOUT* making any actual changes to any budgets, as and if necessary21:57
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lkcleven the *investigation* of what's involved will need its own budget for you, which i wrote (twice) shall be under a "documentation" budget.21:59
lkclgetting just *one* instruction integrated into TestIssuer is a top-priority critical dependency without which there is no way further work (further grants) can add any other instructions to any other pipelines.22:01
lkclthat has to be done in a very careful, very meticulous and very methodical way that i've already established and described, and which you'll need to document so that other people can follow it in future22:02
lkclunfortunately it's very boring "delivery" work - not in any way "creative", but it has to get done.22:04
openpowerbot[irc] <programmerjake> integrating new register files and testissuer are under #1025, are they not? so why are you against adding money to do the tasks you complained needed doing?22:53
openpowerbot[irc] <programmerjake> figuring out what subtasks to split #1025 into doesn't block assigning money to #1025 or signing the MOU ... #1025 is big enough we would run out of funds even if it were 10k larger22:55
openpowerbot[irc] <programmerjake> i was planning on splitting #1025 into subtasks being a project management task that doesn't have a budget assigned...I'll make enough from working on #1025 that it doesn't matter to me22:57
openpowerbot[irc] <programmerjake> lkcl what do you think of ^23:02
openpowerbot[irc] <programmerjake> as a reminder #1035 is the implement power v3.1 insns in isacaller & binutils one, so the EUR 4000 isn't useful there23:09
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openpowerbot[irc] <programmerjake> ah, i figured out why you want a separate budget assignment bug, you want to get paid too...i'll come up with a new proposal soon, busy helping the electrician rewire my house to add gfci and grounds23:28

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