Wednesday, 2021-03-31

jn__lx0: it's still going on, in any case :)00:02
programmerjakeif you want to be able to fix your stuff:
programmerjakesorry it requires running non-free software...03:14
danielp3344programmerjake: what kind of legislation is he proposing?04:04
programmerjakeI don't know the exact details, but I'd expect him to be pretty good at designing it, he has run an independent mac repair shop for 10 years04:06
programmerjakeI'd guess the exact bill isn't completely designed yet04:06
danielp3344programmerjake: yeah but... seems like it would be easy to cause more harm than good04:06
danielp3344I'd wanna see the actual bill before giving him money04:06
programmerjakesounds reasonable04:07
danielp3344IMHO the only way to have hardware you can repair reasonably easily is have manufacturers who will release useful documentation04:07
danielp3344and I don't see a way to legislate that04:07
programmerjakethat, plus actually being able to buy replacement chips04:08
danielp3344I don't actually see that as a problem04:10
programmerjakeit totally is a big problem...04:10
danielp3344I would be worried it would place undue strain on manufacturers to make them make stuff like that available to individuals04:11
danielp3344the fact that they don't would seem to just indicate lack of demand04:11
programmerjakewhat could be a $100 repair turns into an $800 repair if you have to buy a whole replacement motherboard instead of just the chip that died04:11
danielp3344(or some sort of restriction on competing companies)04:12
programmerjakethe fact that they won't is due to apple and others paying them lots of money to prevent them from selling that particular chip to anyone other than apple04:12
programmerjakeif it's too much hassle, they can just have a minimum order quantity that's big enough04:13
programmerjakeother companies such as mouser will happily split that into smaller amounts04:14
danielp3344But, if apple is known to make their devices hard to repair shouldn't people just learn not to buy from them04:14
danielp3344It seems to me like trying to legislate nasty companies into good ones isn't a good idea really04:14
programmerjakewell, nearly every large company is doing the same thing as apple, so there just aren't any mass-market options that are right-to-repair friendly04:16
danielp3344they have excellent documentation also04:16
programmerjakelast I checked pine isn't selling >100M phones04:16
danielp3344no but they do sell them04:17
danielp3344maybe if people start caring more about repairing their devices they'll become more popular04:17
programmerjakethat's part of what this direct-ballot thing is about, I imagine part of the funds will be used to educate the public why they should care about right-to-repair and why it is a problem how it is now04:19
danielp3344I mean I see ways this could harm legitimate companies04:19
danielp3344while at the same time I don't support trying to legislate established corporations into behaving04:20
programmerjakewell, when the companies are going out of their way to make their products unrepairable...that's their fault04:21
danielp3344we just shouldn't buy from them04:21
danielp3344honestly I have a hard time imagining how someone who truly cares about repairing stuff buying from apple04:22
programmerjakethat doesn't work since the vast majority of consumers only realize they care about repairability after they bought from apple04:23
danielp3344Is that a problem?04:23
danielp3344I mean legislating to save people from themselves is another thing I don't like :P04:23
danielp3344most people will have plenty of chances to buy electronic devices anyway (especially if they buy from apple_04:24
programmerjakenot from apple --- typo :P I meant from any company that's like that04:24
danielp3344I guess the same argument still applies no?04:24
programmerjakewell, at the very least we should make sure the public is informed...currently apple and others can manage to protray themselves as repairable because they do something like sell you the motherboard of a $1500 computer for $1400 and say you can replace the motherboard if your $5 battery charging chip dies04:27
programmerjakeyou can check out louis rossmann's youtube channel for more details ... unfortunately I don't know of any decent quick summaries...04:30
Chips4MakersStatus: I did setup cocotb testbench running svf file. But am using iverilog and that is too slow. If I put the chip in reset I can very fast simulate the get of IDCODE, if I put the chip out of reset it took more than 12 hours to simulate 4 clock cycles of the CPU and 30 are needed to siimulate IDCODE. Am using old CPU but still.09:02
Chips4MakersIn order to use verilator with coctb a more recent version is neeeded than provided by debian/Ubuntu. I get compilation errors. Will try existing docker images next to get it going in the short term.09:02
Chips4MakersWill update bug today but need to fix some DRC errors on standard cells and IO first.09:02
lkcldanielp3344: no... they just buy yet another product and throw the broken one in landfill. except in China where they take it to people who work in the factory or know people who do, and get it repaired that way11:51
lkcli started the EOMA initiative to solve this one for "the-rest-of-the-world"11:52
lkclChips4Makers, how do we convert phlib (or other cell library) VBE into VHDL/VST?16:06
lkcli see in alliance there is the sxlib cell library, that has had VHDL added to it16:13
lkclfound it16:24
lkclvasy -s -I vbe {filename.vbe} outputwithoutextension16:41
lkcli got fed up of trying to do it via Makefiles18:53
lkclinstead wrote two python scripts18:53
lkclone to call vasy in the chroot, to get nsxlib VBE converted to VHD18:53
lkclthe second to build the object files using ghdl18:54
lkclvasy outputted in standard VHDL format, not Alliance format18:55
klyssee you in a bit after lunch19:03
Chips4Makers@lkcl: The c4m-flexlib standard cells are delivered with verilog and vhdl behavior models.19:05
programmerjakeyou also need to install ieee754fpu.git and nmutil.git from git.libre-soc.org19:06
programmerjakeklys ^ : some others too -- I think there's a list somewhere19:07
lkclChips4Makers: when you say "delivered with", how is that done? there's nothing in here
lkcland i'm not seeing any other directories here
lkclklys: the scripts to install the dependencies and the libraries are here19:22
lkcland here19:23
lkclif you'd prefer to do that in a chroot, the script to do that is here19:23
lkclannoyingly, you *may* need to remove the git tag on c4m-jtag19:24
lkclgit tag -d 24jan2021ls18019:24
Chips4Makerslkcl: They are part of the release package, see for example FreePDK45 release package:
lkclokaaay excellent19:26
lkclis there one for nsxlib?19:27
Chips4MakersNo, there you will need to convert VBE files.19:28
lkclJean-Paul hasn't completed the doDesign for FreePDK so i am... yes, that's what the scripts are for :)19:28
lkcli am currently running into "vdd not found"19:28
Chips4MakersAs said plan is to get libresoc synthesized and P&Red with FreePDK45 release package, but are going to do cocotb for 0.18 first.19:29
lkclthat needs Jean-Paul to complete the file19:30
lkclthere only exists a file for nsxlib19:30
lkcland for the NDA'd TSMC01819:30
lkclnot for FreePDK4519:30
Chips4MakersI'll likely do my own version of a file for FreePDK45; don't like the alliance-check-toolkit setup.19:31
lkclgreat. you have commit rights to soclayout (i will make sure)19:31
lkclyes you do19:32
lkcli am currently fighting with VST files from P&R19:32
lkclthey are in Alliance subset19:32
lkclrunning vasy -s -I vst ls180.vst ls18019:33
Chips4MakersRegarding c4m-jtag. I may upstream some of your changes. Can I rebase master branch and for push for libre-soc repo afterwards or should I merge new upstream in master.19:33
lkclthis *should* convert from Alliance VST subset into standard VHDL19:33
Chips4Makers..for push.. -> ..force push..19:34
lkclyes go for it.  errr... force push no please don't19:34
lkclthat causes serious problems: everyone has to go through an extremely inconvenient procedure to restore to latest master19:34
Chips4MakersOK will merge new upstream master then in libresoc git master then.19:35
lkcldo you have any suggestions on how to solve the conversion of VST to VHDL using alliance vasy command? it doesn't understand "VSS" or "VDD"19:36
lkclor should we ask Jean-Paul19:36
Chips4MakersI'm no gitolite user but I think you can disallow force push in, especially for master branch.19:36
Chips4MakersDon't have time to bother with that ATM, sorry.19:36
lkclChips4Makers: ack. i will ask JP.19:37
lkclcc you because it's relevant, you can't run cocotb ghdl simulations if the VST files are "faulty" because of syntax errors with unknown "VDD" or "VSS" in them19:37
programmerjakehmm, check a2i or a2o's source code, iirc they also have vdd and vss in them, maybe you can just insert the missing declaration19:46
programmerjakelkcl ^19:46
lkclprogrammerjake: ahh good call19:56
* klys now has output from ./mkpinmux.sh20:45
klyslooks like vhdl or something.  does this go into verilator?20:47
lkclklys, yes. we need to double-check that coriolis2's modifications do npt alter the functionality21:55

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