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| lkcl | octavius, you need to put "bug #xxx" not "#xxx" in order to trigger bugzilla to create an easy-to-use hyperlink. "#xxx" will not create that hyperlink, resulting in inconvenience and pretty much wasting your time having gone to the trouble of putting the bug numbers in. | 09:59 |
|---|---|---|
| lkcl | can you please also put that insight into the issue tracking procedures. | 10:00 |
| lkcl | everything everything everything is about information management, convenience, and ease of making incremental forward progress regardless of knowledge or skillset | 10:01 |
| lkcl | and about accelerating the iterative process of that incremental progression | 10:02 |
| lkcl | programmerjake: remove that paragraph. "Because there are too many instructions to fit within this budget" | 10:15 |
| lkcl | implicitly it is known that we do the best progress that we can. | 10:15 |
| lkcl | the final wrap-up in the bugreport at the end is to either alter the description to state what was achieved or to put a comment just as it is closed "this is what was achieved" | 10:16 |
| lkcl | "<From here down doesn't go in MOU>" | 10:16 |
| lkcl | remove ALL of those and replace them with the standard markdown line-break "--" that i instructed you to use | 10:17 |
| lkcl | a "trigger-sentence" is just f*****g irritating. especially as it is undocumented, non-intuitive, and will get very tiresome to both type and see. | 10:20 |
| lkcl | and if not typed 100% correctly will not do its job | 10:21 |
| lkcl | please DO NOT waste my time or yours saying "but you can just cut/paste it" - (a) that is also time wasted (b) it ignores the other irritations and time-wasting aspects of using an undocumented non-intuitive trigger-sentence | 10:22 |
| lkcl | "--" (<hr /> in HTML) is intuitive, short, obvious, and easy to explain to people. | 10:23 |
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| lkcl | octavius, see how i put "bug #1128" here? https://bugs.libre-soc.org/show_bug.cgi?id=999#c0 | 10:24 |
| lkcl | https://bugs.libre-soc.org/page.cgi?id=editcomments.html&bug_id=1132&comment_id=11585 | 10:25 |
| lkcl | all completed for bug #999's sub-tasks | 10:26 |
| lkcl | nicely done sadoon | 10:28 |
| lkcl | octavius, again https://bugs.libre-soc.org/page.cgi?id=editcomments.html&bug_id=1003&comment_id=10291 | 10:34 |
| lkcl | "bug #976" not "#976" | 10:34 |
| lkcl | octavius: | 10:34 |
| lkcl | **TODO: 1) the 1st sentence does not mention binutils. 2. it needs to say "continuation of bug #976" | 10:34 |
| lkcl | 3. a "--" is needed. 4. the paragraph "this is an umbrella task" is unnecessary. we already know it's an umbrella task, as it has child | 10:34 |
| lkcl | subtasks. 5. the last sentence which repeats for the *third* or fourth time "this is a task" can be removed. 6. again "bug #976" not "#976".** | 10:34 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> <openpowerbot> "[irc] <lkcl> nicely done sadoon" <- Thank you :) | 10:44 |
| lkcl | it only needed 2-3 lines rather than 2-3 paragraphs but hey :) | 10:56 |
| lkcl | think in terms of what an EU Auditor (non-technical) would read. they would want to see less (because they're busy) and would leave it up to michiel and the team to assess the detail | 10:57 |
| lkcl | it'll do - we have enough else to get on with. | 10:57 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> I'll try to make it a bit shorter and leave the rest of the details in the later comments | 11:21 |
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| octavius | Ok, lkcl I fixed bug #1003 | 12:11 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> octavius I want to link to the progress of running microwatt/libre-soc softcore on an fpga, which bug should I link to? | 12:17 |
| octavius | hang on a sec, Ill check | 12:22 |
| octavius | There are two: | 12:43 |
| octavius | Bug 1037 - improvements of Libre-SOC core support on FPGA boards | 12:43 |
| octavius | Bug 1129 - Tasks required for ls2 soc peripheral interconnect on FPGA | 12:43 |
| octavius | You should probably link to 1037, as 1129 is a dependency | 12:43 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> perfect thanks | 12:45 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> comment 0 on bug1128 is for another bug, will fix now | 12:49 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> lkcl 1128 is for VSX testing and 1132 is for qemu SFFS, sorry for the confusion | 12:56 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> All that's left now is to finish up glibc for debian and write the summary for qemu | 12:56 |
| octavius | Updated discussion page: https://libre-soc.org/nlnet_2022_ongoing/discussion/ | 13:09 |
| lkcl | octavius, brilliant. https://bugs.libre-soc.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1003#c0 | 13:11 |
| lkcl | that leaves removal of the paragraphs from 1025 and 1026 and the removal and replacement of long-winded "trigger" sentences with the simple intuitive "--" | 13:14 |
| octavius | lkcl, So you want these paragraphs removed? | 14:08 |
| octavius | bug 1025, paragraphs commencing with "The first NLnet grant..." and "Because there are too..." | 14:08 |
| octavius | bug 1026, paragraphs commencing with "Unit tests..." and "Because there are too..." | 14:08 |
| octavius | And as for "replacement of long-winded "trigger" sentences with the simple intuitive "--"" | 14:09 |
| octavius | Is this something Jacob can do? I have no idea of the context | 14:09 |
| markos_ | lkcl, ooc, why the 80char limit? is anyone reading this on a VT terminal? | 14:11 |
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| octavius | 80char limit is fine, means that you can have many terminals open side by side markos_ | 14:11 |
| markos_ | could we remove that limit? I don't see how it's still relevant on today's computers | 14:11 |
| markos_ | I have lots of terminals open and none are 80c :) | 14:12 |
| octavius | Do you want source code where lines are 300 chars long? ;) | 14:12 |
| markos_ | I'm not wrapping code at 80chars I'll you that :) | 14:12 |
| octavius | "I'll you that"? | 14:13 |
| markos_ | ^tell | 14:13 |
| markos_ | sorry missed the verb :) | 14:13 |
| markos_ | it doesn't reach 300 chars wide, I guess I probably stop at around 120-150 | 14:13 |
| markos_ | well there are a couple of projects which use clang-format to auto-wrap code at 80c, but I personally dislike that | 14:14 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> Triple monitor 1000 char terminal | 14:14 |
| octavius | The problem is probably, once the limit is extended to 150, then someone will request it to be extended further still | 14:14 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> You roll in your chair to read the rest | 14:14 |
| markos_ | I prefer the code to look as I intend it to, not how the formatter expects it | 14:14 |
| octavius | Well, we're working as a project, which means there must be code formatting guidelines in place | 14:15 |
| octavius | And I prefer to leave it as it is, there are already too many things too worry about | 14:15 |
| markos_ | I don't disagree, I don't even mind a limit, it's just the 80 chars limit that made me curious | 14:16 |
| octavius | 80 has been a standard for decades | 14:16 |
| markos_ | yes and people now have 4k monitors and stuff :) | 14:16 |
| octavius | and it means even someone with a potato computer could easily read our code files | 14:16 |
| markos_ | I don't mind the limits as long as there is a reasoning, even "because I say so" is a reason | 14:17 |
| markos_ | but yes, making sure it's readable on old computers is good enough | 14:18 |
| markos_ | octavius, now that you mention it, some projects I've contributed to actually enforce the compliance to certain formatting using CI | 14:19 |
| octavius | https://softwareengineering.stackexchange.com/questions/148677/why-is-80-characters-the-standard-limit-for-code-width | 14:19 |
| markos_ | if your code is not formatted CI will reject your patch | 14:19 |
| octavius | https://stackoverflow.com/questions/110928/is-there-a-valid-reason-for-enforcing-a-maximum-width-of-80-characters-in-a-code | 14:20 |
| octavius | This second link gives some good reasoning | 14:20 |
| octavius | "To improve readability. Narrow code can be read quickly without having to scan your eyes from side to side." | 14:20 |
| markos_ | I disagree, but ok | 14:21 |
| markos_ | esp when it comes to logfiles, having a single line per entry instead of wrapping on 80 cols (which is tiny for really log entries) is much easier on the eye | 14:22 |
| markos_ | anyway, I was just curious | 14:23 |
| octavius | I'd say for source code, 80 lim is good. | 14:23 |
| octavius | But I agree that logs are a bit different | 14:23 |
| octavius | with logging it doesn't matter as much | 14:23 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> Even the microwatt patches are not working for glibc | 14:23 |
| octavius | but logs are also auto-generated (and thus don't need to be committed anyway) | 14:24 |
| markos_ | even for code, I'm often cursing when I'm above those limits :-/ | 14:24 |
| markos_ | the problem is that with C and eg tabs=4, when you are in a deep nest of branches, you've already wasted 25% of the available space on tabs and the formatter wraps your code to a ridiculous level | 14:25 |
| markos_ | with C++ and templates it's even worse | 14:25 |
| markos_ | I guess it depends on the language | 14:26 |
| octavius | Yes indeed | 14:29 |
| octavius | One thing I noticed in Python (after Luke pointed it out), is that refactoring an if statement check, I could save myself from indenting a whole bunch of code (at the expense of an extra return statement, which some safety critical code specs wouldn't allow) | 14:31 |
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| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> https://libre-soc.org/SFFS/qemu | 14:49 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> Should I mark qemu task as resolved? | 14:55 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> glibc without altivec vsx et al is not doable atm, I think it needs a separate task because even the patches need patching it seems | 14:58 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> Here's what I'm proposing for the next tasks: patching glibc and making linux-microwatt-5.7 reproducible for our uses (optionally either backporting the patches to 6.1 or 5.4 to be on LTS) | 14:59 |
| markos_ | sadoon, you don't *need* glibc without vsx | 14:59 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> 2- getting the damn thing running on softcore FPGA, which I can now attempt since I have two that use FOSS tools | 15:00 |
| markos_ | you only need qemu without vsx | 15:00 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> 3- trying to add cpu feature flags to qemu for ppc to disable vsx and altivec et al | 15:00 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> Yeah markos_ I understand but qemu without vsx is being a huge pain that it is well worth it to run on FPGA first, it's actually more doable | 15:01 |
| markos_ | well, we may need qemu in the future anyway | 15:02 |
| markos_ | not referring to this task btw | 15:02 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> Yes, it's not canceled or anything | 15:02 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> It just needs a lot more work | 15:02 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> I'll leave this to next week's meeting so we can discuss if we should move on to FPGA stuff + linux-microwatt to finally be able to test stuff | 15:03 |
| markos_ | most likely IBM will have to do it on their own anyway | 15:03 |
| markos_ | qemu that is | 15:03 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> I doubt they will, there are still no commercially available v3.0 SFFS chips afaict | 15:04 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> Unless they plan to make some | 15:04 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> I'll include instructions on building vanilla glibc for now so the chroot actually works | 15:05 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> This only affects debian, gentoo already ignored my CFLAGS for glibc, sigh | 15:05 |
| markos_ | I wonder if it would be worth using a simpler libc for this project, eg. musl | 15:13 |
| markos_ | it's already built for ppc64le | 15:15 |
| markos_ | and it can be used in place of glibc, with LD_PRELOAD | 15:15 |
| markos_ | ah it's not for replacement of glibc | 15:16 |
| markos_ | but for building binaries against musl | 15:17 |
| lkcl | there was some serious, *serious* problem with i think musl. | 15:24 |
| lkcl | someone posted about it - the approach that they took was to duplicate entire headers from the linux kernel, rather than do the sane thing of #including them | 15:25 |
| markos_ | for a PoC that won't be a problem | 15:26 |
| markos_ | I'm not talking about a long term solution eg for Debian | 15:26 |
| markos_ | but only to make sure that we get something that boots on eg. FPGA or qemu and brings us to a prompt without having to fix half of glibc | 15:27 |
| lkcl | toshywoshy did actually get it to work, with a backport. he's done the work already, it's just not published / public | 15:30 |
| markos_ | even better | 15:30 |
| lkcl | (which is why i asked for NGI POINTER work to be made public at the time it was being written) | 15:30 |
| lkcl | toshywoshy said (summarising) on a call a few days ago that the "latest" version worked fine because the work by tulio upstreamed was in the version used by "latest" powerel (something like that) | 15:31 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> I am worried about the rest of the system not playing well with another libc | 15:32 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> Look at void, alpine, etc and the massive number of patches they needed | 15:32 |
| lkcl | but that when trying the "stable" version of powerel (which has an older version of libc6) it required back-porting of tulio's patches "nixing #ifdef POWER9 using #ifdef HAVE_VSX" | 15:32 |
| lkcl | sadoon, it's that bad, ehn? | 15:33 |
| lkcl | well, at least gentoo worked. that's "good enough" | 15:33 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> Gentoo's glibc still has VSX in it, no way to know until we can test on real hardware, which I want to do asap :) | 15:33 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> It just didn't fail when I supplied my cflags | 15:33 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> which is a good sign | 15:34 |
| lkcl | i'd actually like to put say openembedded/yocto and buildroot on the next grant's TODO list | 15:34 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> and contrast to debian, gentoo does have musl experimental support which we can try as well if need be | 15:34 |
| lkcl | particularly as... who was it... joel shenki already had buildroot working | 15:34 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> They have their patches done in gentoo for musl so we don't have to mess around that | 15:34 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> (for some stuf) | 15:34 |
| lkcl | really good idea to read the online post about the maintenance nightmare of musl, first | 15:35 |
| lkcl | it's a quite reasonable and rational "roasting" but the responses are very revealing | 15:35 |
| lkcl | indicating (once again) that the musl team are, sadly, in that "empathy / mirror-neuron-atrophy" trap | 15:36 |
| markos_ | I wouldn't go there | 15:36 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> bah | 15:36 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> I'd rather we don't waste our time | 15:36 |
| markos_ | it doesn't matter how the project operates internally, we only want something minimal that doesn't use VSX so that we get a simple prompt | 15:37 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> Ok.. generating the debian repo finally, if this works I can call this done | 15:37 |
| lkcl | the guy who posted had some really important technical insights, and the responses were "i fail to see why that's important" - everything you'd expect if someone lacked mirror-neurons | 15:37 |
| lkcl | markos_, mmmmm good point | 15:37 |
| lkcl | sadoon, well even if you can't that's also fine | 15:37 |
| markos_ | lkcl, it's not like we plan to develop a product around musl | 15:37 |
| markos_ | but if glibc becomes too much of a problem to get it to work without VSX, we have to have an alternative | 15:38 |
| lkcl | there's no point bashing your head against a brick wall for the same amount of money, but i do understand and appreciate that you'd prefer to reach a "completed" goal :) | 15:38 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> :) | 15:38 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> I want the next step to start with a clean objective, "ok we know what failed now let's try to fix it" | 15:39 |
| lkcl | markos_, over time (as the version of libc6 in debianNNN.NN goes up to cover tulio's patches) that should disappear | 15:39 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> so btw should I add the new tasks for fpga, linux, and glibc stuff? | 15:39 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> I want to start on them asap | 15:39 |
| lkcl | i _say_ should - as long as the ppc64/libc6 maintainers don't bloody well introduce more "#ifdef POWER9/POWER10" patches, sigh | 15:39 |
| markos_ | lkcl, that's great, if our timeplans overlap :) | 15:39 |
| markos_ | hahaha | 15:40 |
| markos_ | yes | 15:40 |
| lkcl | sadoon: new tasks? que? oh, you mean "future plans?" | 15:40 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> yes | 15:40 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> For the next funding and to start working on soon | 15:40 |
| lkcl | mmm yyyeees... probably a good idea, *in brief*, and link them as "depends on" the relevant ones | 15:40 |
| markos_ | #ifdef POWER10 // I'll just use some MMA code | 15:41 |
| lkcl | and shove them under the "Future" milestone | 15:41 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> alright sounds good | 15:41 |
| lkcl | markos_, sigh | 15:41 |
| lkcl | but don't spend too long on them - make them real brief placeholders | 15:41 |
| lkcl | oh i updated the wiki page on SFFS/qemu https://bugs.libre-soc.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1132#c5 | 15:42 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> alright | 15:42 |
| lkcl | if you're good to close it then i am too | 15:42 |
| * lkcl afk | 15:42 | |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> alright, great | 15:43 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> debootstrap fails at some point probably missing packages, but the chroot works fine, yay | 15:43 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> vim not building, neither is udev, I'll add mc and nano to the chroot so that we can have editors at least | 15:44 |
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| lkcl | fantastic | 15:58 |
| lkcl | good idea | 15:58 |
| lkcl | btw can youuuuu.... drop the rootfs-tarball onto your server just like last time, i'll keep updating it | 15:58 |
| lkcl | i actually want to try it out | 15:59 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> One step ahead of you ;) | 15:59 |
| lkcl | (under qemu-ppc64le-user) | 15:59 |
| lkcl | (which i thiiink i already have working....) | 15:59 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> deboostrap luckily has an option to make a tarball automatically | 15:59 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> apt will not work for now, stupid udev | 15:59 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> I can add vanilla udev if you want apt to work on non sffs machines | 16:00 |
| lkcl | i'm used to embedded systems and using /sbin/MAKEDEV :) | 16:05 |
| lkcl | i can handle it myself but others might not be able to. | 16:05 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> but apt isn't :D | 16:05 |
| lkcl | please tell me the fucking virus known as "potterton's insanity" hasn't also taken over apt | 16:06 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> it requires udev if that's what you're asking | 16:06 |
| lkcl | fucking hell | 16:06 |
| lkcl | this has to stop | 16:06 |
| lkcl | that makes apt *critically dependent* on the fucking systemd package | 16:07 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> we can use devuan's apt | 16:07 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> if it comes down to that and systemd is absolutely failing to build whatsoever | 16:07 |
| lkcl | give me a second to get the source code, i usually build debian packages with debian/control and debian/rules *REMOVING* systemd dependency | 16:09 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> if it's that easy then great | 16:10 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> it should be fine | 16:10 |
| lkcl | but now do you see why i said "use debian/10"? | 16:11 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> debian 10 also has the same issues I assume | 16:12 |
| lkcl | no it won't because the "infection" had not propagated, there | 16:12 |
| lkcl | let me check - apt 2.7.3 depends on libsystemd-dev [linux-any], | 16:13 |
| lkcl | libudev-dev [linux-any], | 16:13 |
| * lkcl checking 1.8.3 | 16:14 | |
| lkcl | no you're right, it does indeed depend on libudev-dev and libsystemd-dev | 16:15 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> we'll use the devuan apt source package | 16:15 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> easy stuff | 16:15 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> (for another day) | 16:15 |
| lkcl | yyep | 16:15 |
| lkcl | fascinating - there's no *actual* dependency listed | 16:16 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> why systemd fails to build without VSX is beyond me, but not surprising | 16:16 |
| lkcl | i am not in the LEAST bit interested. at all. | 16:16 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> apt needs udev.so something | 16:16 |
| lkcl | i never run with systemd (another reason why i said use debian/10 because less of debian/10 has been "infected") | 16:17 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> if we do a full system devuan might actually be a viable option thanks to no systemd and the fact that there's no systemd means less precious ram eaten | 16:18 |
| lkcl | sad to say we may have to abandon debian as it's just too infected at this point | 16:18 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> (cue joke about rams being eaten) | 16:18 |
| lkcl | and devuan is not "inclusive to all init systems" because it's "anti-systemd" | 16:18 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> Better than nothing though | 16:18 |
| lkcl | except for when you want to use debian/testing packages to get at least some way towards a "rolling-release" distro | 16:19 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> They do that though no? | 16:19 |
| lkcl | devuan is so small they can't possibly put the time/effort into *also* covering debian/testing | 16:20 |
| lkcl | no they do not | 16:20 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> there's devuan testing afaict | 16:20 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> ah | 16:20 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> debian testing in a chroot :) | 16:20 |
| lkcl | or at least, they weren't in any way able to keep up when i last spoke to them | 16:20 |
| lkcl | found that they were "anti-systemd" in direct violation of their stated goal, weren't interested in fixing that, at which point i backed away fast | 16:21 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <programmerjake> > [irc] <lkcl> "--" (<hr /> in HTML) is intuitive, short, obvious, and easy to explain to people. | 16:24 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <programmerjake> it is totally non-obvious that it means "the rest of this comment doesn't go in the MOU", it just looks like random formatting that means nothing of the sort | 16:24 |
| octavius | It's the first time I've seen '--' being used like that, but I also don't care | 16:25 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <programmerjake> imho we should use something that's more self-documenting than "----" but less error-prone than the whole sentence | 16:25 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <programmerjake> how about </MOU> | 16:25 |
| octavius | We just need to get the final changes done to submit the MoU | 16:25 |
| octavius | that can be thought about later | 16:26 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <programmerjake> since anyone who knows any xml/html knows what an end-tag looks like | 16:26 |
| octavius | Are you suggesting having <MOU>text text</MOU>? | 16:27 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <programmerjake> technically, changing to "----" isn't a requirement to generate the correct MOU since the script also triggers off that trigger phrase | 16:27 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> https://albader.co/debian-sffs.tar lkcl | 16:27 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> nano works, mc is giving me trouble, ignore it | 16:28 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <programmerjake> no, i'm suggesting: blah, blah, text in MOU | 16:28 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <programmerjake> </MOU> | 16:28 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <programmerjake> text not in MOU | 16:28 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> I'll work on improving this a lot once we bootstrap an fpga | 16:28 |
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| openpowerbot | [irc] <programmerjake> lkcl: https://git.libre-soc.org/?p=utils.git;a=commitdiff;h=cec00456818c6437de30cecc8c2bb0746a6cfb3c | 16:32 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <programmerjake> we still need to look for blank lines before/after the "---" line otherwise we'd trigger on ascii-art | 16:32 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <programmerjake> e.g. we'd trigger on: | 16:33 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <programmerjake> --- | 16:33 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <programmerjake> | | | 16:33 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <programmerjake> --- | 16:33 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <programmerjake> so i want to partially revert that commit | 16:33 |
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| openpowerbot | [irc] <programmerjake> \ this ascii-art wire also incorrectly triggers it | 16:42 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <programmerjake> --- | 16:42 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <programmerjake> \ | 16:42 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> I marked 999 and all subtasks as done, woo | 16:46 |
| octavius | Nice one sadoon :) | 16:47 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> thanks! | 16:47 |
| markos_ | lkcl, systemd preferences aside, we will *have* to move debian 12 soon | 17:19 |
| markos_ | I neither like or dislike systemd, it's just a tool, I can do the same things with systemd that I did with init scripts before | 17:20 |
| markos_ | some things are easier others are a pita | 17:20 |
| markos_ | s/move debian 12/move *to* debian 12/ | 17:20 |
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| markos_ | programmerjake, </MOU> seems too XML-ish but missing the <MOU>, if you need to use just one tag, just add a combination, eg ---MOU--- | 17:24 |
| markos_ | or ---/MOU--- rather | 17:24 |
| markos_ | or !MOU, etc | 17:24 |
| markos_ | you get the point | 17:24 |
| markos_ | but definitely not </MOU> | 17:25 |
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| openpowerbot | [irc] <programmerjake> hmm, how about <end MOU> | 17:26 |
| markos_ | why do you need the <> at all? | 17:29 |
| markos_ | eg. for text files it's common to use separator of the form ---TEXT--- all the time | 17:29 |
| markos_ | with less or more dashes, that's your choice | 17:30 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <programmerjake> ok, with dashes sounds fine, but not just `end MOU` with nothing but the words | 17:30 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <programmerjake> lkcl: what do you think? | 17:31 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <programmerjake> since `--` by itself is totally non-obvious since it's not self-documenting | 17:32 |
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| tplaten | continue working on gram, where I left a month ago. | 17:50 |
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| lkcl | sadoon: when you create bugs don't set "comment editing" or change any defaults that could make bugs anything other than private. don't check *any* tickboxes in other words | 18:14 |
| lkcl | programmerjake: no. leave it. move on. | 18:15 |
| lkcl | do not waste further time thinking about or discussing it. | 18:15 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <programmerjake> well, I don't like leaving a trap for noobs when it's easy to fix | 18:16 |
| lkcl | please read what i just wrote, respect what i have written, and do not waste further time. | 18:19 |
| markos_ | I think Jacob is right in this one and this is trivial enough to fix, I think ---end MOU--- is good enough and unlikely to trigger anything | 18:19 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <programmerjake> this violates the principle of least surprise | 18:19 |
| lkcl | the task that has *zero budget* is good enough | 18:19 |
| lkcl | no | 18:19 |
| lkcl | please drop the discussion | 18:19 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <programmerjake> ok, but this will come back to bite us... | 18:20 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <programmerjake> sadoon: checking the "comment editing" box means you're making the bug only visible to those with the privilege to edit comments, which is not desired | 18:22 |
| markos_ | this is the sort of micro-management that I dislike, it's not like we're designing a full blown protocol here, tbh, I wouldn't even ask what to choose in this case and just pick something sensible | 18:22 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <programmerjake> hence why luke said to not check it | 18:22 |
| octavius | Guys, can we save this for another time? Let's just finish what's needed for the MoU already | 18:23 |
| octavius | bugs 1025 and 1026 | 18:23 |
| markos_ | sure | 18:23 |
| lkcl | programmerjake: not important. far higher priority tasks to focus on. please don't keep putting roadblocks and trying to repeat what you have already repeated and i have already stated clearly is not important | 18:24 |
| lkcl | octavius, precisely. it's not important, we have to *get the damn MoU in*. screw future users, right now i'm under financial pressure, ok? | 18:25 |
| lkcl | i could care less about future users | 18:25 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <programmerjake> 1025/6 are now ready for the MOU | 18:26 |
| octavius | lkcl, you haven't answered my questions on: https://libre-soc.org/irclog/%23libre-soc.2023-08-25.log.html#t2023-08-25T14:08:27 | 18:26 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <programmerjake> oh, i forgot the paragraph you wanted removed, sec... | 18:27 |
| octavius | But don't they need to be replaced with something else? Won't there be a blank comment 0 problem | 18:28 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <programmerjake> no, because we're just removing the paragraph about too many insns for budget, everything else stays | 18:29 |
| octavius | Ah ok | 18:29 |
| octavius | thanks for clarifying | 18:29 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <programmerjake> removed that paragraph from 961 and 1025/6, those should be ready for RFP now | 18:30 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <programmerjake> luke, just found why we *have* to not have the trigger be just `---`: 961 uses that to separate subtasks | 18:32 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <programmerjake> so, can i remove `---` from the script and add `---end MOU---`? | 18:33 |
| octavius | I just noticed that in bug #961 as well. Does it impede current RFP? | 18:33 |
| octavius | If we can get away with it, make sure we're ready for submission first | 18:34 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <programmerjake> if `---` is the trigger than 961's text will end up as just "Schedule A, based on https://libre-soc.org/nlnet_2022_ongoing/" and nothing else | 18:34 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <programmerjake> yes, it impedes the RFP | 18:34 |
| octavius | Added '+' on either end for now? Separate by +------+ etc. | 18:35 |
| octavius | Then ----------- at the bottom | 18:35 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <programmerjake> it takes 1 min to change the script, 961 is not the only top-level bug with --- formatting | 18:36 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <programmerjake> i just need the go-ahead from luke | 18:37 |
| octavius | Oh I see. Then lckl, it *will be faster* to add a terminator `---end MOU---` than it would to change every top-level bug | 18:37 |
| octavius | But how many bugs will we need to change for the `---end MOU---` format programmerjake? | 18:38 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <programmerjake> 2, 1025/6 | 18:38 |
| octavius | ok | 18:38 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <programmerjake> luke, your commit doesn't even work, it uses \ instead of : | 18:40 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <programmerjake> i'm reverting it | 18:41 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <programmerjake> lemme know and i'll push with it changed to `---end MOU---` | 18:42 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <programmerjake> ok, I have the json and it looks fine, lkcl I'm waiting on you | 18:50 |
| octavius | I need to go chaps, speak to you later | 18:52 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <programmerjake> all i need to do is git push and upload the JSON... | 18:52 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <programmerjake> bye octavius | 18:52 |
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| openpowerbot | [irc] <programmerjake> I already changed 1025/6 | 18:54 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <programmerjake> I'll just go ahead and upload the JSON then... | 19:04 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <programmerjake> uploaded json and pushed to the fix-mou-splitting branch, now you don't need to wait on me (unless more task descriptions need to be changed?) | 19:08 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <programmerjake> note that the Schedule A is changed, removing the too many insns for budget paragraph, so lkcl you'll need to re-copy that to the email or just link it | 19:09 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <sadoon[m]1> <openpowerbot> "[irc] <lkcl> sadoon: when you..." <- Oh my bad, thought that allowed others to edit comments | 19:41 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <programmerjake> yeah, it's misleading, but too annoying to figure out how to change | 19:41 |
| lkcl | sadoon: i was caught out by that as well when i started. i had to hand-patch a *25 year* old version of bugzilla with a "comment editing" patch that someone wrote *15* years ago | 19:46 |
| lkcl | programmerjake: no, i won't. part of the responsibility of writing the MoU (Schedule A) is to duplicate/simultaneously-update the Schedule A if the comment#0s are changed | 19:47 |
| lkcl | and i am not doing day-to-day admin any more, that's down to you (all) | 19:48 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <programmerjake> I did simultaneously update it...I'm just saying it's different now so if you're submitting the email to nlnet you need the correct contents | 19:48 |
| lkcl | bottom line: please don't attempt to assign tasks to me or make *any* assumption that i *will* do anything - at all | 19:48 |
| lkcl | ahh ok | 19:49 |
| lkcl | .... | 19:49 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <programmerjake> ok, then should I email nlnet? | 19:49 |
| lkcl | the email(s) i send are simply to notify NLnet "here's the bugtracker comments, here's the attachment again in the bugtracker" | 19:49 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <programmerjake> ok, sounds good! | 19:49 |
| lkcl | no because i haven't reviewed it, and it's my responsibility as project leader under whose name the MoU is signed, to do that check | 19:50 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <programmerjake> k | 19:51 |
| lkcl | programmerjake: *please follow my instructions*. | 19:59 |
| lkcl | i did NOT authorize the use of anything other than "-----" for task ending | 20:00 |
| lkcl | you are WASTING MY TIME NOT LISTENING | 20:00 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <programmerjake> but ---- is broken because the main mou tasks use ---- everywhere | 20:02 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <programmerjake> the json is correct, can we just submit it and figure out the rest later? | 20:02 |
| lkcl | no. | 20:03 |
| lkcl | the top-level MoU Schedule A is *not* included in the RFPs | 20:04 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <programmerjake> k | 20:04 |
| lkcl | and even if it was included, the use of "---" is fantastic because it subdivides the "description of the top-level milestone" from the Schedule A (an analog of the same use for milestones/subtasks) | 20:05 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <programmerjake> in any case, the json is correct and we can change to ----- later | 20:06 |
| lkcl | no: please *re-run* it. | 20:06 |
| lkcl | i have deleted the branch that you created. | 20:06 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <programmerjake> did you change something on bugzilla that needs rerunning? | 20:06 |
| lkcl | this will teach you to do what is asked. | 20:07 |
| lkcl | Schedule A, based on https://libre-soc.org/nlnet_2022_ongoing/ | 20:07 |
| lkcl | ----------------------------------------------------------------------- | 20:07 |
| lkcl | that's perfect for exactly what should go into the JSON file | 20:07 |
| lkcl | just that first line | 20:07 |
| lkcl | if you had listened instead of wasting my time by thinking that you were right, i would not be so angry | 20:08 |
| lkcl | and this task would be completed | 20:08 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <programmerjake> k, did something change that ends up in the json? | 20:08 |
| lkcl | please | 20:09 |
| lkcl | do | 20:09 |
| lkcl | what | 20:09 |
| lkcl | i | 20:09 |
| lkcl | have | 20:09 |
| lkcl | asked | 20:09 |
| lkcl | RERUN it and check FOR YOURSELF | 20:09 |
| lkcl | that is your responsibility to check, given that you have screwed up. | 20:09 |
| lkcl | this is in the Charter | 20:09 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <programmerjake> i'm asking if you changed anything, that should be trivial to answer | 20:09 |
| lkcl | if you screw up, *you* own the screw-up and *you* get to fix it | 20:09 |
| lkcl | i am going out now | 20:10 |
| lkcl | i am not well | 20:10 |
| lkcl | you are taking up my personal time doing tasks that make me healthy | 20:10 |
| lkcl | therefore dealing with this is MAKING ME ILL | 20:10 |
| lkcl | please STOP. | 20:10 |
| lkcl | LISTEN | 20:10 |
| lkcl | and TAKE RESPONSIBILITY for your screw-up from NOT LISTENING | 20:10 |
| lkcl | have you got the message yet? | 20:11 |
| lkcl | this is terribly frustrating for me, makes me really angry and i LITERALLY cannot afford to do that, it has severe damaging health consequences | 20:11 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <programmerjake> i'm listening. i'm asking you if you changed anything because that means we don't need a new json file | 20:11 |
| lkcl | i am going out now: please do what i have asked. | 20:11 |
| lkcl | you're still not getting it | 20:12 |
| lkcl | i am not going to answer | 20:12 |
| lkcl | please DO WHAT I HAVE ASKED AND RE-RUN THE FUCKING COMMAND | 20:12 |
| lkcl | RIGHT NOW | 20:12 |
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| openpowerbot | [irc] <programmerjake> i'm working on that... | 20:12 |
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| openpowerbot | [irc] <programmerjake> just wasted time fixing the code and running it, only to discover you changed it too, it'd be nice if you told me next time | 20:30 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <programmerjake> made json | 20:36 |
| openpowerbot | [irc] <programmerjake> lkcl ^ | 20:37 |
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