Monday, 2022-07-18

octaviushi lkcl, read you got a new laptop. Which version of debian did you install? I'm thinking of re-purposing mum's old macbook air at some point12:13
lkcldebian/11.  it was absolute hell12:18
lkclit was one of the worst experiences of installing debian, in over 22 years.12:19
lkclthe worst part is: given the choice i am forced to make the exact same choice again, because the alternatives are even more of a waste of my time both short and long term12:20
octaviusOh no12:22
lkclwicd - the only non-KDE non-Gnome non-network-manager-integrated WIFI management GUI - has been removed from debian/11.12:23
octaviusThis system I'm running on uses systemd, but that's because I didn't have a clue as to how to switch to sysvinit.12:23
octaviusWhy has wicd been removed, not maintained?12:23
lkclbecause it uses python 2.712:23
lkclsystemd is perfectly fine if you are fine with pottering's pathological behaviour12:24
octaviusI'm not, but I'm also lazy XD12:26
octaviusI did use to use arch and gentoo, but after working with you for a year I became content with debian12:26
octaviusI think I'll try to do a sysvinit install for the spare laptop, since it's not needed for work atm anyway12:27
lkclthe outward consequence of pottering's pathological behaviour indirectly results in the CVEs you see ther12:27
lkclyou'll find it goes:12:27
lkcl"do you really want to remove kde, gnome, pulseaudio, xserver-xorg-core, firefox, chrome, gtkwave, .... .... ....?"12:28
lkclyes it's really that bad.12:29
octaviusOne of my biggest annoyances is that since systemd became the de-facto standard, there are few tutorials/materials for managing services with other init systems. The learning curve is stupid, given that the simpler init systems are basically symlinks and shell scripts12:29
lkclas i said in the link above i had to download xserver-xorg-core (apt-get build-dep xserver-xorg-core; apt-get source xerver-xorg-core)12:29
lkclthen hand-edit debian/rules.flags12:29
octaviusfor example I know system-ctl is the normal command people use. Whereas sysvinit took me far longer to find12:30
octaviusYeah, I remember gentoo being 'fun' to deal with those systemd deps12:30
lkclthere isn't one.  you just do /etc/init.d/{name-of-service} stop/start/restart12:30
octaviusAh, I was thinking of the devuan one12:31
lkclas all of this stuff has been in place for 20+ years it's not actually that hard.12:31
octaviusPerhaps I just need to go over it (which I will for the install) and write a blog post12:31
lkclevery /etc/init.d script is a bash script.12:32
lkclhow hard does bash have to be in order for the /etc/init.d scripts to be "un-understandable"?12:32
lkclyou get a problem you can't work out you just kill the daemon12:32
octaviushuh, these scripts in init.d are still in a systemd system, are they used in tandem?12:33
lkclit *doesn't* f*****g well get restarted under "managed" control, forcing you to desperately search for the command12:33
lkcli don't know, and please don't take this the wrong way: i don't care and i'm not interested in finding out, either12:34
octaviusWe got more interesting problems to deal with12:34
octaviusalso added the env var to tas-yagle12:34
octaviusWill update the dev script and test in a chroot12:36
* lkcl melting my brain with subvl stepping in a precise-interruptible (FSM) fashion16:20
lkclcan't just do "for i in range(VL): for j in range(SUBVL):"16:21
lkclit has to be state-based:16:21
lkclinit(): SVSTATE.srcstep = dststep = substep = 016:21
lkcl   if substep < subvl: substep += 116:21
lkcl   else:16:21
lkcl      substep = 0; srcstep += 1; dststep += 116:22
lkcl        if srcstep == vl: END16:22
lkclwhere Pack/Unpack will REVERSE the ordering, ah ha ahahahahaha16:22
lkclwhen Pack is enabled, srcstep gets incremented first (inner loop) and subvl gets incremented last (outer loop)16:23
midnightwhat are the tools for gate-level design these days?17:06
octaviusmidnight: That's what libre-soc uses:
octaviuslkcl, how's the weather where you are? My car read 39C outside temp XD17:08
midnightoctavius: Thank you.17:20
lkcloctavius, i'm trying not to open the door(s) to find out17:31
lkcloctavius, coriolis2 is a gate *layout* program, converting gate-level design or RTL automatically into GDS-II17:31
lkclmidnight, do you mean like schematics?17:32
lkcloctavius, i mean, you *could* use coriolis2 to actually perform the direct programmatic (python) creation of the netlists and the cells17:32
lkclthat's actually been done a number of times in coriolis2, for various reason (e.g. IO pads is the obvious one)17:33
midnightlkcl: I am looking specifically for raw, logic-gate arrangement design software-- no VLSI/VHDL/etc. Like..  AND gate here, NOR there, etc.17:33
lkclgeda. and such17:33
lkclthey're schematic layouts in which you will find IEEE-91 ANSI symbols17:34
midnightI build a truth table, I hand-optimize it with karnaugh maps or whatever, I arrange the gates on a grid or otherwise, maybe enclose in a glyph/package-looking icon for placement into other projects, etc.17:34
lkclyou likely want geda, kicad, etc.17:34
lkclthere are many more like that - we don't use any of them for this project17:35
midnightlkcl: There's some way to make such work useful in a libre-soc context?17:35
lkcltypically what i've done is done hand-drawn diagrams then back-converted them to HDL17:35
lkclthere were some online website gate-level design systems discussed here... err.... 18-24 months ago?17:36
midnightHrm. If I designed a superior ALU for example, or a faster instruction decoder, getting it into a personal libresoc experiment would thus require some finagling in other words. Hey speaking of, you ever heard of the old-school ? I don't suppose any of that effort would be transferrable would it?17:38
midnightI have one of those cards still.17:39
lkclyes, basically, although if it's in a machine-readable file-format then it could be converted programmatically (we do a LOT of compiler technology / language-translation)17:39
lkclha, ahh i remember that17:39
lkcland Frank's not-GPL-GPU17:39
lkclit was actually "the words of the GPL License with an additional non-free non-commercial clause tacked on the end"17:40
lkclwhoops :)17:40
midnightWas that in the OGD1 source somewhere? lol really brutal.17:41
lkclFrank Bruno was one of the developers of Plan9 (i think)17:42
lkclah interesting there's no mention there of the additional non-commercial clause
lkclwhich i definitely recall seeing somewhere on his website17:44
midnightlkcl: hrmmm..  I just compared the license file in that github with the gpl-v3 and looks like just formatting changes? Maybe he corrected that as a final send-off.17:47
midnightThat would be nice of him.17:47
lkcli honestly don't know, that sounds likely17:50
lkclistrc it was GPLv2 when i investigated (5+ years ago?)17:51
midnightAnyway, really really glad this project exists. I'm usually pretty quiet but I'm a huge fan of the goals. Also Raptor's support is obv. helpful in differentiating the project from the unfortunately-common traps out there. So, seriously, thank you. When this becomes a product I can stuff in my computer room or into a rack, I'm going to buy so darn many, :-D17:52
midnightOh, the kickstarter says it was planned to be under the lgpl.17:53
lkclwe don't use kickstarter - crowdsupply runs ethically-hosted campaigns17:54
midnightOh!  I meant the gplgpu thing linked above.17:54
lkclthey also don't "abandon" you. Joshua's great17:54
midnightI love crowdsupply stuff.17:55
lkclwell it helps also if you appreciate this has been going... er... almost 4 years?17:55
midnightYes, I'm aware, and also patient. Since the pace is reasonable, I figured perhaps gate-level stuff might be feasible, hence my above question.17:55
lkclyeah i did the LD/ST Computational Unit entirely gate-level, wrote it out 15 times17:56
lkclniice. wow, 2014.17:56
lkclahh that _was_ frank bruno.17:57
lkclNumber9 Graphics, not Plan917:57
lkclwhere the hell is it :)18:29
lkclthere we go
lkcland the resultant HDL;a=blob;f=src/soc/experiment/;hb=HEAD18:30
lkclwhich is now slightly different as the HDL is about the 20th revision18:31
lkclmidnight, have you read "Design of a Computer" by James Thornton?21:54
lkclaround p126-p127 is the scoreboard21:54
lkclthe world's first supercomputing OoO system, predating Tomasulo by over 5 years.21:55

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